ATTENTION Monaco Owners who have warranty issues

[Jmyers]

MM - thanks for the birthday note, I had a great day (that happens alot when you fulltime). Will you be going to Bowling Green for the FMCA rally in Ohio? If so we can look you up, thanks again, Jim

[Nonno]

Charles,

Sent you a PM

[Joe & Bonnie]

We're new to the forum so here goes.
We have a 2008 Knight 40SKQ that has been broke or in the shop 80% of the time we've owned it. It was back in the shop one week after we bought it. The majority of problems have been with the left front slideout - ripped underside of the slide, black marks on the tile, busted pinion gears, retractor gear teeth chewing up molding, etc. This and a whole bunch of other crap. Everytime we used it, something broke. Roof air conditioners, torn awning and weatherstriping, water leaks, radio problems, miswired TV cables, overheated relays, inop dash A/C, battery boost that has never worked, etc., etc. Even the stove exploded.

We finally filed a lawsuit in August citing the Ohio lemon law and demanded a buyback or replacement. Of course Monaco refused, citing that there was nothing wrong. Even had it at the Elkhart service center before they closed. It was there for a month and when we picked it up, the same slideout retractor was broke again-busted off gear teeth. Paint overspray all under the slideout. When we told them, Monaco still refused to believe it was broke, again. Our dealership went belly up so we had it independently inspected. Monaco found excuses not to inspect it themselves. We even met with their lawyer to clarify issues and suggest solutions. Recently it was in another shop for two months and while driving home one week after the warranty expired, the coolant tank hose ruptured. Antifreeze sprayed everywhere. The hose had dry rot all over it.

The big theme in this whole case is/was Monaco’s refusal to acknowledge the issues and react responsibly. All we wanted is our money back or the coach replaced. They refused to acknowledge the problems and stalled efforts until they filed Chapter 11. Since we had a lawsuit and court date pending, we will be filing a claim.

Add us to your list. If you want additional details, give me a yell at jmoore4900@woh.rr.com.

[cb5300]

OK, here is an update....I'm in TENN at the present time having a Moto-Sat installed on the coach....My Attorney is checking on the Creditor's meeting that is set for April 9th in Wilmington, DE....He is telling me that these things can go on for days and that he is trying to find out which day will be best for me to make my way there from Virginia. He said that he didn't want me sitting there spinning my wheels so to speak. He is also checking about seeing if a committee has been set up to cover warranty issues, and if not, what we will have to do to make sure one is set up.

I will post up as I find out info....Feel free to email me with your info and if you want me to add your name to our list.

[cb5300]

OFF TOPIC
Hey Momma!!!! This Moto-Sat is ... We have it wired up so that we have the Hughs net and the Verizon aircard...and along with the "Bird on a wire" and the KVH R6 (in motion) we think we have everything covered....

[geomar]

We do not have your email to respond to you. We will not be able to attend prerally, nor FMCA due to personel committment in MO. geomar. 2007 PRQ Diplomat. mswis.1@sbcglobal.net

[brucemcdou]

Originally Posted by cb5300

Alright boys and girls, start posting up if you have warranty work that has been done, yet not paid for by Monaco. I've got a week to get as many examples of people that have been left hanging. This may be our best shot to get our money back so let's not blow it.

Hi, cb5300 - Was hoping I wouldn't be here but I am. We have had approximately $2700 in warranty work done on our 2008 Monarch, all of which was pre-approved by Monaco within the one-year warranty and done by our service shop. The shop (Leale's in San Jose, great people) just phoned up and explained that they've never been paid and could they send me a bill? I didn't agree to pay, but I asked them to send me all their paperwork including the approval number they got from Monaco for each piece of work. I expect I will get that in a few days.

Let me know if you'd like more detail for your purposes. Appreciate your efforts!

[cb5300]

Here's an update...There was a meeting yesterday of the "Creditors"...I drove up to Wilmington, DE from Roanoke, VA for the meeting, and somewhere along the way lost my wallet...(Starting out to be a bad day..) Went to the Federal building and of course I didn't have a photo ID cause I had lost my wallet....Talked to the US Marshalls watching the door and not only would they not let me in, but threw me out...(day now getting worst ). Now I understand rules and such, but come on now give me a break...Some of these security policies are just over the top..I offered to let them finger print me, handcuff me or whatever they needed to do, but I told them I needed to be at that meeting.... I even called the Trustee (a whole lot of good that did) and he informed me that the rules are the rules... He then informed me that there will be another meeting since Monaco had not filed all of their paper work yet and I can come back then....He must think that I'm a "Govt worker" and have nothing better to do then just run up and down the highways.... I will post up with the new date as soon as I can find out what it is, just in case someone would like to join me at the "funny farm."

[bullydogs1]

When you get a date, please post or PM me..This time, I just might go and will adjust my schedule around it....This whole Monaco debacle is making me madder by the day.

[Nedra]

Isn't it true if you have approved claims that you submit them directly through the courts? I received a notice and was planning on submitting my stuff. Why would I need to go through a lawyer and pay them money to do this for me?

[EngineerMike]

I believe the following to be correct (and well worth the price ), but a call to the Trustee might help verify and consultation w/a BK atty definitely would:
1) The Trustee is there to see that creditors get the best deal they can under the law and within the reach of the circumstances, but s/he works for & reports to the Court, not for/to creditors
2) creditors need to file each claim w/the Trustee or it doesn't exist; exceptions are claims the BK entity filed (the incomplete papers cited above) so as to notify the Court that liabilities exceed assets for the moment or longer
3) the creditors meeting and any follow up processes are not to file claims per se, but to see if and to what extent creditors agree to proposed solutions (ultimately referred to as the Plan) offered by Monaco and/or major lenders and/or juntas of lenders, and to allow the Trustee to hear such discussion in an organized & formal setting. Once approved by the Court, the Plan becomes a master contract for directing action on Monaco's liabilities, and probably functionally, on all activities including warranty claims management.
4) warranty claimants are individual unless and until they are represented jointly. Hiring an attorney who accumulates claims & represents claims jointly makes for a large & more visible "claim" and gives more bargaining power to the sum total of claimants, but gives up individual sovereignty. Giving a legal power of attorney to a non-attorney (maybe somebody in the warranty claim group) does the same, the rep doesn't need to be a licensed atty, but should be a decent negotiator, trusted, and have some level of knowledge about how to proceed on behalf of claimants.
5) Nothing can improve the seniority of warranty claims. They stand ahead of or behind whatever other claims exist (which priority can be explained by the Trustee) based on statue. IIRC employee wages come ahead of everybody else, along w/certain pension benefits, etc. Then secure creditors in order of priority, then unsecured (which is where I believe warranty claims stand), then shareholders get the rump. To screw a junior creditor class out of full payment, the Court must find that the plan does not discriminate unfairly, & it is fair and equitable, whatever that means in the mind of (all hail & bow respectfully) the judge.
6) Bankruptcy can discharge contractual (think warranty) obligations if that is deemed necessary by the Court under the Plan; failure to file a proof of claim may discharge the obligation if, as a solution the Court opts for a clean slate status of the corporation on exiting bankruptcy (called cramming down filed claims, but also perhaps establishing a sort of reverse-grandfathered status to unfiled claims thereby killing them legally, so unfiled warranty claims are more at risk than filed (i.e. filed with the Court whose Trustee is now running Monaco in all operative legal sense). Certainly warranty claims not filed w/Monaco within the warranty period and not filed w/the Court could be in serious jeopardy, the Court being the more important of the two.
7) Functionally, whatever the high priest of bankruptcy, the judge, says goes. If s/he decides that employment is way more important than sniveling creditor complaints, s/he can screw everybody w/a claim in order to help the business stay as a going concern. S/he can thwart a sale of assets, or be its best ally. In this case, a sale of assets (to Navistar) could satisfy secured creditors & wipe out unsecured (including y.k.w.), or terms of the sale could respect creditors to some extent (perhaps even accepting all warranty liabilities as a way to successfully restart Monaco as a going concern). This has been well reported as to GM/Chrysler & the dilemma of warranty service from a high profile BK manufacturer.
8) According to news reports (I haven't read any of the filings myself), Monaco listed between 25-50,000 creditors. That must include coach owners w/warranties. Presumably, there will be a good faith effort to notify all potential warranty holders via snail mail to file their proof of claim in a timely fashion. Good faith presumes Monaco uses its best available info to assemble the list, and that USPS does its usual "job." Since getting notification relies on dealers doing their jobs perfectly, IIWY- don't rely on this process if you have large warranty claims you can't or don't want to write off w/a chuckle; get the form for proof of claim and file it w/the Court.

I feel for everybody in this boat. Western RV (maker of our Alpine Coach) closed 8 months into my 3 year warranty, tho they have never filed BK. Thankfully, my claims in the mean time are sufficiently trivial that it is more of a worry about what might happen than a financial issue. And by making great use of our owner's association, local clubs, and this great online community, we have assembled excellent documentation that is now available online for ongoing service to our rigs, and have helpful owner-driven solutions to educate & assist less technically minded coach owners.

iRV2 is and has been invaluable in that support network
Hope the above is useful for fellow orphan coach owners. Best of luck!!

[Granpop]

Purchased a 2009 Beaver Patriot Thunder on Jan. 01, 09.
As usual with a new unit, repairs will be necessary.
Leaks, slide problems, and numerous other repairs including
correction of items which the selling dealer supposedly fixed.
I was recently notified Monaco didn't even pay Coach Net for the
first years problems as they were supposed to even though they had
3 months to do so prior to filing chapter 11. Really hoping for some decent
outcome as the unit really should be repaired at the factory to insure
some type of decent effort.

[cb5300]

Originally Posted by Granpop

Purchased a 2009 Beaver Patriot Thunder on Jan. 01, 09.
As usual with a new unit, repairs will be necessary.
Leaks, slide problems, and numerous other repairs including
correction of items which the selling dealer supposedly fixed.
I was recently notified Monaco didn't even pay Coach Net for the
first years problems as they were supposed to even though they had
3 months to do so prior to filing chapter 11. Really hoping for some decent
outcome as the unit really should be repaired at the factory to insure
some type of decent effort.

Just because you have it repaired at the factory doesn't guarantee a decent effort...I think that some of the repairs done at the factory toward the end might have fell a little short....(Speaking from my own experence)

[cb5300]

Originally Posted by Nedra

Isn't it true if you have approved claims that you submit them directly through the courts? I received a notice and was planning on submitting my stuff. Why would I need to go through a lawyer and pay them money to do this for me?

To answer your question, this is why!!!!

Originally Posted by EngineerMike

I believe the following to be correct (and well worth the price ), but a call to the Trustee might help verify and consultation w/a BK atty definitely would:
1) The Trustee is there to see that creditors get the best deal they can under the law and within the reach of the circumstances, but s/he works for & reports to the Court, not for/to creditors
2) creditors need to file each claim w/the Trustee or it doesn't exist; exceptions are claims the BK entity filed (the incomplete papers cited above) so as to notify the Court that liabilities exceed assets for the moment or longer
3) the creditors meeting and any follow up processes are not to file claims per se, but to see if and to what extent creditors agree to proposed solutions (ultimately referred to as the Plan) offered by Monaco and/or major lenders and/or juntas of lenders, and to allow the Trustee to hear such discussion in an organized & formal setting. Once approved by the Court, the Plan becomes a master contract for directing action on Monaco's liabilities, and probably functionally, on all activities including warranty claims management.
4) warranty claimants are individual unless and until they are represented jointly. Hiring an attorney who accumulates claims & represents claims jointly makes for a large & more visible "claim" and gives more bargaining power to the sum total of claimants, but gives up individual sovereignty. Giving a legal power of attorney to a non-attorney (maybe somebody in the warranty claim group) does the same, the rep doesn't need to be a licensed atty, but should be a decent negotiator, trusted, and have some level of knowledge about how to proceed on behalf of claimants.
5) Nothing can improve the seniority of warranty claims. They stand ahead of or behind whatever other claims exist (which priority can be explained by the Trustee) based on statue. IIRC employee wages come ahead of everybody else, along w/certain pension benefits, etc. Then secure creditors in order of priority, then unsecured (which is where I believe warranty claims stand), then shareholders get the rump. To screw a junior creditor class out of full payment, the Court must find that the plan does not discriminate unfairly, & it is fair and equitable, whatever that means in the mind of (all hail & bow respectfully) the judge.
6) Bankruptcy can discharge contractual (think warranty) obligations if that is deemed necessary by the Court under the Plan; failure to file a proof of claim may discharge the obligation if, as a solution the Court opts for a clean slate status of the corporation on exiting bankruptcy (called cramming down filed claims, but also perhaps establishing a sort of reverse-grandfathered status to unfiled claims thereby killing them legally, so unfiled warranty claims are more at risk than filed (i.e. filed with the Court whose Trustee is now running Monaco in all operative legal sense). Certainly warranty claims not filed w/Monaco within the warranty period and not filed w/the Court could be in serious jeopardy, the Court being the more important of the two.
7) Functionally, whatever the high priest of bankruptcy, the judge, says goes. If s/he decides that employment is way more important than sniveling creditor complaints, s/he can screw everybody w/a claim in order to help the business stay as a going concern. S/he can thwart a sale of assets, or be its best ally. In this case, a sale of assets (to Navistar) could satisfy secured creditors & wipe out unsecured (including y.k.w.), or terms of the sale could respect creditors to some extent (perhaps even accepting all warranty liabilities as a way to successfully restart Monaco as a going concern). This has been well reported as to GM/Chrysler & the dilemma of warranty service from a high profile BK manufacturer.
8) According to news reports (I haven't read any of the filings myself), Monaco listed between 25-50,000 creditors. That must include coach owners w/warranties. Presumably, there will be a good faith effort to notify all potential warranty holders via snail mail to file their proof of claim in a timely fashion. Good faith presumes Monaco uses its best available info to assemble the list, and that USPS does its usual "job." Since getting notification relies on dealers doing their jobs perfectly, IIWY- don't rely on this process if you have large warranty claims you can't or don't want to write off w/a chuckle; get the form for proof of claim and file it w/the Court.

I feel for everybody in this boat. Western RV (maker of our Alpine Coach) closed 8 months into my 3 year warranty, tho they have never filed BK. Thankfully, my claims in the mean time are sufficiently trivial that it is more of a worry about what might happen than a financial issue. And by making great use of our owner's association, local clubs, and this great online community, we have assembled excellent documentation that is now available online for ongoing service to our rigs, and have helpful owner-driven solutions to educate & assist less technically minded coach owners.

iRV2 is and has been invaluable in that support network
Hope the above is useful for fellow orphan coach owners. Best of luck!!

To be fair, I guess it would depend on how much money you stand to lose if your warranty issues aren't covered....I for one have a bill sitting out there for close to 25K...and for that kind of money I'll hire an attorney to protect my interest...Now, if anyone wants to contact and talk to my attorney, I'll be glad to give his contact info out...Remember there is always strength in numbers.