Bypassing salesman switch

[mel s]

Originally Posted by Diesel Guy

Hello what the heck is a saleman switch (is it a switch that turns a saleman off when he is trying to sell you something ???? )

Diesel Guy
A so called "salesman switch" is a switch normally located in the RV near the entry door.
They cut off the 12VDC power to the 12V fuse panel...disabling most, but not necessarily all, 12VDC house circuits.

Some, (like mine), are mechanical and not often a problem.
However, many, like the OP's, are a relay/soleniod and often problematic,
(some even continually draw battery current).

They are also, IMO, relatively useless...I have accidentally turned mine off, , more times than I've actually used/needed it in the 13 years I've owned this coach.

BTW, if only a salesman switch could automatically turn a RV salesman off anytime he lied..... all RV sales lots would be nearly silent..... and no one would want to bypass theirs.

Mel
'96 Safari

[Dr4Film]

Originally Posted by adonh

I have the switch just inside the door, I have never used it. I would like to check this out on my Airstream 2005 Freightliner chassis. Where would I look to find the the red and purple wires and solenoid. Thanks

This task is very simple.

Have one person at the front door switching the solenoid first off and then on repeatedly.

Have another person listen carefully in your electrical bays for the solenoid clicking on and off.

Then once you find it, remove the small gauge control wires and tape them separately first and then together followed by zip-tying them someplace out of the way. Next, remove the heavy gauge cable from one side and place it back onto the solenoid on the other side and your finished.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[danes-on-tour]

Originally Posted by William Willard

Dane -- I`ve told you about making people sick -- William Willard

I know that Dad - it won't happen again

Am I grounded now?

[MandG-Fun]

I'm not trying to be combative with 94-Newmar's comments, just trying to understand his objection to bypassing this circuit, assuming it is done in a proper manner.

So, restating my question from my previous post... Since the battery disconnect switch in the rear run bay will fully disconnect any house power is there a good reason for the salesman switch and solenoid to exist? What benefit does it provide other than giving a secondary kill switch to someone that doesn't want to walk 35' and open a hatch?

The additional failure points and drain on the battery seem to be a really high price to pay for this option.

[mel s]

Originally Posted by adonh

I have the switch just inside the door, I have never used it. I would like to check this out on my Airstream 2005 Freightliner chassis. Where would I look to find the the red and purple wires and solenoid. Thanks

adonh
First determine if you have a mechanical switch or small 12V switch that operates a solenoid/relay.

A mechanical "salesman switch" will usually have a handle/leaver/knob mounted to a rotary shaft protruding from it and it will have 2 heavy cables connected to it, (but usually no small wires).

A solenoid will be usually be some distance away from the switch that activates it, will usually have 2 heavy cables and 2 (or more?) thinner wires of any color (not necessarily red and/or purple) attached, and it wlii operate with a fairly loud CLICK whenever the small 12 switch is turned on, (or off), (or both).

Mel
'96 Safari

[Dr4Film]

Originally Posted by MandG-Fun

I'm not trying to be combative with 94-Newmar's comments, just trying to understand his objection to bypassing this circuit, assuming it is done in a proper manner.

So, restating my question from my previous post... Since the battery disconnect switch in the rear run bay will fully disconnect any house power is there a good reason for the salesman switch and solenoid to exist? What benefit does it provide other than giving a secondary kill switch to someone that doesn't want to walk 35' and open a hatch?

The additional failure points and drain on the battery seem to be a really high price to pay for this option.

Glenn,

I am in total agreement with you and I too am waiting to hear what 94-Nermar has to say to your questions.

Regarding the hundreds of Monaco owners along with Holiday Rambler, Beaver and Safari owners who belong to the Monacoers Yahoo forum who have previously had 12 VDC power problems and failures with the same Battery Cut-Off solenoid, try to tell them that they are "hacks" when it comes to bypassing the POS solenoid.

I was having lots of problems with the Battery Cut-Off solenoid in my coach over a period of one year right after purchasing it from the original owners. Finally based on many Monacoers members recommendations, I bypassed the Battery Cut-Off solenoid about 9 years ago and to this day I have not had ONE problem with the damn thing or losing my 12 VDC power. See photo.

If I need to turn off the 12 VDC to my coach, I walk to the Rear Run Bay aka RRB and rotate the GUEST switch to OFF. Photo attached.

Which brings me to another potential hazard with these Battery Disconnect Switches. If your coach has a Marinco BEP Battery Disconnect Switch, I would suggest replacing it ASAP. There have been many problems with these switches and some fires. You can do the research to find the information yourself if interested but don't say you haven't been warned. Photo supplied of the BEP switch.

I would suggest either purchasing a PERKO or GUEST Battey Disconnect Switch rated to the proper amount of AMP's for your coach to replace ANY of the BEP switches.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[Dr4Film]

Here are a couple of photos taken from the rear of a BEP Battery Disconnect Switch that was removed from a Monacoers member coach.

This will give you a better idea of what I was referring to in my previous post.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[94-Newmar]

Originally Posted by MandG-Fun

I'm not trying to be combative with 94-Newmar's comments, just trying to understand his objection to bypassing this circuit, assuming it is done in a proper manner.

So, restating my question from my previous post... Since the battery disconnect switch in the rear run bay will fully disconnect any house power is there a good reason for the salesman switch and solenoid to exist? What benefit does it provide other than giving a secondary kill switch to someone that doesn't want to walk 35' and open a hatch?

The additional failure points and drain on the battery seem to be a really high price to pay for this option.

I'm not being combative either, just simply raising awareness to many potentially ugly situations.

First we cannot make the assumption that all coaches have another house disconnect (generally a manual type switch) further downstream. In fact, many other manufacturers do not. Now the coach owner has a hot 12vdc system with no way to disconnect it should something happen that requires quick and immediate disconnection - perhaps during a shorted wiring situation.

Second, if your disconnect relay is staying "hot" (latching coil energized when on) then there is probably something wrong. The KIB and Intellitec relays are clearly latching type relays which only require a pulse to trigger them on or off - they hold open or closed with no power applied to the operating coil. Is this "constant-on" coil hot/warm condition generally only found on Monaco or HR units? Perhaps they're wired entirely wrong from the factory back from the days of the old pulsed relay setups?

Third, I just got back from a week's worth of training in Decatur for Fleetwood/Monaco/HR. They, over the past couple of years, begun automatically energizing the house side, if it's off, when you start the engine. I won't bore you with their justification of doing this, let's just say it's silly to say the least. Wiring around the house disconnect in the manners described in this thread will send this type of system into total chaos.

Fourth, Precision Instruments smart battery control centers are beginning to show up more frequently across the manufacturers now. These units intelligently disconnect house and or chassis batteries BEFORE performing an equalization charge on either. Equalization charges can exceed 15.0Volts and can damage 12v appliances and circuitry if left connected and ON/operating at that time. What if someone reading this thread who does not have the understanding of these systems decides to bypass their house or worse yet, chassis disconnect thus defeating any safetys built in by the manufacturer?

Have I jumped around a bad/faulty disconnect solenoid? Yes - but only until I could get a replacement and the customer was well forewarned of the implications of doing so. That being said, I made sure there was no other system as described above that may need to utilize the disconnect. I have not and will never defeat a house or chassis disconnect permanently under any circumstances.

Edit: P.S - Dr4Film Yes, those disconnects are deplorable and anyone having one should have it replaced at first chance.

[palehorse89]

[Brockx]

Trying to learn........

Above the entry door steps I have 2 disconnect switches. One for the chassis, one for the house. When I switch them I hear a load Clunk / Click in the front of the coach, are these the solenoids that are potentially problematic or are they a momentary switching relay?

Can't walk out and look it's in storage.

[ImagineIF]

Originally Posted by 94-Newmar

...Precision Instruments smart battery control centers are beginning to show up more frequently across the manufacturers now. These units intelligently disconnect house and or chassis batteries BEFORE performing an equalization charge on either. Equalization charges can exceed 15.0Volts and can damage 12v appliances and circuitry if left connected and ON/operating at that time.

What make and model battery charger incorporates this level of "intelligence"? What ever it is it should be avoided! I would NEVER own a charger that goes into equalize mode on its own.

[William Willard]

94-Newmar -- Sometimes, education can be a dangerious thing --

The Dane -- Not grounded, just behave yourself from now on -- William Willard

[MandG-Fun]

Richard (Dr4Film)...
Thanks for the info on the batt cutoff switches. I have previously looked at the Perko switches but at the time dismissed it as an exercise in swapping out parts for the sake of putting in something new. My disconnect switches are Cole-Hersee. Have you heard of any potential problems with these (considering they are now 14 years old), if so then I can justify the upgrade.

94-Newmar...
Thanks for the additional detail. Totally agree that a coach without a disconnect further downstream toward the battery would make this circuit a necessity.

While I have a reasonable grasp on electrical circuits I don't know if the circuit design and wiring from the factory is bad. The design in my coach uses a Cole-Hersee solenoid and the latching coil needs to be energized to complete the circuit. The few others who I have spoke to about this all confirmed that their wiring is the same and their solenoids are always warm/hot when energized.

With all of the complexity in coaches today, my simple-minded thought is to keep as much simplicity as possible without sacrificing advancement. If a simple high quality mechanical switch can disconnect the power I would take that design any day over a bunch of "intelligent" electronics. Thanks again for sharing your experiences and information.

--Glenn

[Dr4Film]

Originally Posted by 94-Newmar

I'm not being combative either, just simply raising awareness to many potentially ugly situations.

First we cannot make the assumption that all coaches have another house disconnect (generally a manual type switch) further downstream. In fact, many other manufacturers do not. Now the coach owner has a hot 12vdc system with no way to disconnect it should something happen that requires quick and immediate disconnection - perhaps during a shorted wiring situation.

Second, if your disconnect relay is staying "hot" (latching coil energized when on) then there is probably something wrong. The KIB and Intellitec relays are clearly latching type relays which only require a pulse to trigger them on or off - they hold open or closed with no power applied to the operating coil. Is this "constant-on" coil hot/warm condition generally only found on Monaco or HR units? Perhaps they're wired entirely wrong from the factory back from the days of the old pulsed relay setups?

Third, I just got back from a week's worth of training in Decatur for Fleetwood/Monaco/HR. They, over the past couple of years, begun automatically energizing the house side, if it's off, when you start the engine. I won't bore you with their justification of doing this, let's just say it's silly to say the least. Wiring around the house disconnect in the manners described in this thread will send this type of system into total chaos.

Fourth, Precision Instruments smart battery control centers are beginning to show up more frequently across the manufacturers now. These units intelligently disconnect house and or chassis batteries BEFORE performing an equalization charge on either. Equalization charges can exceed 15.0Volts and can damage 12v appliances and circuitry if left connected and ON/operating at that time. What if someone reading this thread who does not have the understanding of these systems decides to bypass their house or worse yet, chassis disconnect thus defeating any safetys built in by the manufacturer?

Have I jumped around a bad/faulty disconnect solenoid? Yes - but only until I could get a replacement and the customer was well forewarned of the implications of doing so. That being said, I made sure there was no other system as described above that may need to utilize the disconnect. I have not and will never defeat a house or chassis disconnect permanently under any circumstances.

Edit: P.S - Dr4Film Yes, those disconnects are deplorable and anyone having one should have it replaced at first chance.

Thank you for the explanations listed above.

Here is what I have gleamed from 94-Newmar.

1. - Not all coaches are identical WRT 12 VDC. Some have Battery Disconnect Switches. Some have Battery Cut-Off Solenoids and yet others have BOTH. One size does NOT fit all so recommendations need to be specific to that brand and model of coach. Even more so with the newer RV systems.

#2. - There are different types of solenoids used for Battery Cut-Off Systems. Mine happened to be a White-Rogers Constant Duty solenoid with an On/Off switch whereas others are a Latching Type solenoid. Those are energized with a momentary switch to either turn it ON or OFF. That type of solenoid is less likely to fail but they do. Whether the manufacture wired it correctly is a subject for a different thread.

#3. - New RV's made today are getting more sophisticated than in past years where the systems were simple and basic. For example, they are now using Multiplex Wiring Systems for lighting, system controls, gauges, etc. to reduce the amount of wire needed throughout the RV. And it appears now that they are building RV's with "brains" providing automatic systems so the owner doesn't have to think. Not sure that is such a good idea! I like things simple and basic like On&Off switches versus Multiplex switches.

Dr4Film ----- Richard