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Old 09-06-2018, 10:06 PM   #15
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The only draw I have on the chassis battery is the generator so this works great for
me unless I forget to turn off the head lights.
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivylog View Post
While dirty contacts in the big boy is a common problem it is not your problem because when using the boost to start the engine the big boy is providing that connection so the contacts in it are in good shape. 8 is pointing to the bidirectional board, acronym of bird and it is not telling the big boy to connect and charge your engine batteries. Your problem could be as simple as the fuse referenced above is blown. When energized the big boy is hot to the touch so if it is not hot, it is not charging the engine batteries when hooked to shore power by the inverter/charger. You do not need to add diodes or another charger, you need to fix the bird relay so that it energizes the big boy.
Spot on!
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Old 09-06-2018, 10:24 PM   #17
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http://www.irv2.com/forums/f115/do-i...-153008-2.html Read from 27 on for lots of information.

Keep in mind there are slight differences, such as how much voltage is used to hold those large solenoids closed. Some may even use a pulsing voltage. So enjoy the reading.

First let’s clear up the "Big Boy" question. It is like calling all tissues Kleenex.

To be specific there are several variations of the "Big Boy" solenoid. The solenoid is a very simple electric switch controlled by a 12-volt source. See, even the Big Boy is not always called that. As an electronic tech I will refer to it as the relay. How's that for confusion.

So, Big Boy, Solenoid, Relay, and often because of the mfgr of these they are called Trombetta relays.

How these relays are activated can be complex or as simple as sending 12 volts and ground to them.

You will notice on your relay in the battery compartment that there are two wires. One is likely purple. In any case one is ground and the other is switched 12 volts. The purple wire is the switched voltage in most cases.

Again, 12 volts is sent to the purple wire and the big relay goes clunk and makes contact between the large wires thus combining the batteries.

That relay under normal working conditions will get very warm or even hot to the touch if it runs for several hours. For example, if things are working properly and you are using shoreline it will be working 24/7 and get hot to the touch. This is normal.

So, the heart of the system is that relay on the back being controlled by 12 volts. How and where that 12-volt control comes from can be the tricky part to understand...

We will get to the BIRD part shortly.

First, if the engine is running and after a few minutes of warming up and the grid heater stops loading down the battery voltage on the chassis batteries should rise enough to engage the BIRD device and send the 12 volts to the relay. This is the “Delay” part of the bird. It would not make sense to combine the batteries without the alternator having brought up chassis batteries a bit.

So, let’s take the situation where your chassis batteries have been run down for some reason. You left the radio on for two days etc.

Pressing and holding the Aux start button bypasses the fancy “BIRD” circuitry and sends 12 volts directly to the relay in the battery compartment. This combines the battery banks just as a set of jumper cables would.

Part 1:














Part 2.

Now that we understand how the relay functions let’s begin managing when it is turned on. We already discussed how the “Aux” start button controls it. That is a manual function and can easily be tested by listening to the relay as someone presses the button. If no clunk is heard, then the relay is most likely already activated. To test this without a meter, simply remove the purple wire. Wear some gloves because there will be a tiny static like discharge that can surprise you. If you have a meter you can measure the voltage on the little terminals. You can also carefully feel the relay to see if it is warm or hot IF it has been engaged for some time.

Here is how the Bi-Directional Relay Delay functions to control that purple wire.

Keep in mind the “DELAY” part as you are troubleshooting. It can take a couple of minutes for it to activate. No sense in combining batteries if the first bank being charged is not up enough.

Parked with nothing running and no shoreline the bird is asleep. No combining. However, if you have solar that is indeed a charging source and may be enough to activate the bird.

Now you plug into shoreline. The little circuit board in the front run panel wakes up and sees that your converter is doing a fine job of charging the coach batteries. The converter is connected directly to them via cutoff switches and fuses or circuit breakers. The BIRD now sends voltage to the relay and engages it, thus combining the batteries.

Time to leave, shoreline is disconnected so the BIRD drops out the control voltage. You fire up the big engine and in a couple of minutes the BIRD sees a nice alternator doing its thing. Time to send voltage to the relay again.

We have just discussed the BI-directional part of the BIRD. This demonstrates how it can work from one set of battery banks to the other depending on which one is getting the charge.

Arriving at your favorite boon docking place you decide to fire up the generator to run some heavy loads. This generator is the same thing as having shoreline power, so it works as described before.

So, you spend the weekend without the generator running anymore and enjoy the quiet along with
some tv and perhaps running the microwave on the inverter. Inverter of course not the converter. They can be combined in one box and I can address that more if needed. Inverters are real battery hogs so now you have a very low set of batteries.

You are packed, and the big engine is started, thus providing a big enough voltage to activate the BIRD. You are now charging 6 batteries or more and the alternator is straining. This is rough on the alternator, so you follow the manufacture and my advice and fire up the generator so the “converter” comes alive and supplies voltage to the dead batteries.

At this stage you have two sources of charging voltage. The converter via the generator, and the alternator. This poses a bit of an issue with the alternator and can cause it to show a fault. However, the BIRD is rather smart and knows the engine is running along with the generator. With these two competing charging sources it simply turns the Relay off and allows each battery bank to be charged separately.

Now that you understand how it works, here is a scenario that could get you home if your alternator dies. Just start the generator and prop the AUX button up so it forces the banks to combine. Since your alternator is offline there will not be any conflicts. This will easily get you any distance you wish to travel.

Of course, you could put a small jumper from 12 volts to the purple wire and do the same without pushing the button.

Now you understand how, when, and why the relay is activated. What you don’t know is if it is actually working. The relay is a very simple device inside. It is a magnet that pulls a contact across the two large wires connected to it. Very often these contacts burn and fail to make contact. This can be intermittent and drive a technician crazy.

If the relay is activated there is either a charging source or the AUX button is being held down. When it is activated it is like placing a nail across the two large terminals. So you should see the exact same voltage on each of the large terminals and at the batteries. If you do not see the exact same voltage across the large terminals, then the relay is bad.

This can be a bit tricky if both banks of batteries have been fully charged and the relay is making contact but a poor one. You will see the same voltage on each large terminal and think the relay is ok. You need to run one bank down a bit so there will be lots of current trying to charge for an accurate assessment.

If you are having one bank of batteries low after having a charging source for several hours and you find voltage on the purple wire then the relay is bad.,

These relays are a known source of problem and I had a heck of a time understanding how the system works. I am a senior certified electronic tech and extremely qualified to work on such a simple system as long as I know how it is supposed to function. I did not have that information in 2008.

Replacing the relay is easy and cheap as things go on these things. Be sure to turn both battery banks off and I would highly recommend removing the negative leads of each bank for additional safety. You can weld with these battery cables so do be careful.

Once you replace the relay do yourself and us a favor by taking it apart and posting pictures of the insides.

The actual BIRD control board is a common failure item too but has become difficult to source. I found one on e-bay.

Don’t despair if that is the problem because there are plenty of other solutions available.

There is another relay that has nothing to do with the charging system but gives plenty of problems. It is the “Salesman” switch/relay. It is the relay controlled by the switch by the door or nearby. The relay is in the box up front near the BIRD board. The BIRD board is a small board. The relay is on the bottom left.
This thing controls lots of functions and can go bad anytime. Simply bypassing it with a jumper is easy and permanent fix if it fails.
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:31 PM   #18
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One other point.

None of the BIRDs magic will happen if the house charging system is not outputting 13.4 volts.

There have been more then a few cases where the BTS, ( battery temperature sensor ) of some high end inverter/chargers have failed.

They can fail open or closed. In one case the voltage will be just low enough to not reach 13.4 and in the other case, it will be slightly to high.

If you suspect it, just unplug it from the inverter/charger and go with the default mode of 77°. If things improve, you found your problem.
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Old 09-07-2018, 04:12 AM   #19
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All the info in how the battery charging works is in the Owners Manual. If you don't have it (or would like a pdf manual) you can down here.
https://www.monacocoach.com/resource...dynasty_OM.pdf

Note the settings related to charging when connected to Shore Power. If your Inverter/Charger is set for 20A shore power but you are plugged into 50A, the batteries will not charge up as quickly.
Also note that the Charging can be turned OFF. Make sure you didn't accidently turn off charging.

Here is a summary of how the BIRD and Big Boy works (from Owners Manual)
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:30 AM   #20
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thanks for the respones everyone!

lot's of info here....thank you! definitely given me some items to check out! and some reading material while we wait for the weather to clear up. currently we are in west tx and its been raining for several days, my Harley is still on the lift and as soon as the weather clears up abit I will unload the Harley and check fuses and contacts to start.....thanks again for all your responses.

currently I have removed the chassic batteries and they loaded check OK, checked the voltage on the chassic batteries with the engine running and it appears the alternator is charging the batteries at 14.1 volts. my magnum is set for shore power of 50 amp


if we use the coach on a regular basic everything seems fine, but with it setting for over a week is when it doesn't want to start.


thanks all!
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:41 AM   #21
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check for a light on in a storage area, engine bay etc. Ceiling vent running that you maybe can't hear?
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:15 PM   #22
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Ditto on storage bay lights, I think they work on chassis battery.
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Old 09-07-2018, 02:24 PM   #23
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Grab a jumper cable and connect between the positive terminals of each bank for a temporary solution. Shore power can then charge all of the batteries.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:02 PM   #24
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thanks for the respones everyone! still confused!

Rains finally stopped for abit and I was unable to unloaded the Harley and get into the engine compartment and rear box. The "Big Boy" was cold and not humming, did not find any blown fuses (#8 on diagram). The voltage on both battery banks, 8 AGM house and 2 chassis are maintaining the same ~12.5 volts measured at the battery post. Inside on my Magnum panel it indicates 13.5 v adsorbing charge after a few minutes of restoring shore power. With the main engine running the chassis batteries are ~13.9 volts measured at the post.

I wanted to check and see if the engine would start and it did with no problem, walked to the rear run box to check voltage around the big boy and I noticed it was getting warm and within a period of 10 minutes I heard and felt several clicks from the big boy. Shut down the engine and again went to the back of the coach and the big boy was humming and getting warmer...….but while checking fluids I heard a click and the humming stopped.

One of the earlier post indicated that while plugged into shore power the big boy should be humming and warm/hot.
We are currently in a state park and will be heading towards home in a few weeks. Seems like my next option is to clean the big boy, I would rather wait until I get back home, but if I can find a good auto parts store my do it hear.

thanks for all the help! pretty sharp bunch of folks out there and I really appreciate the responses.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:40 AM   #25
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i want to thank you for all your help and good reading material...….the Big Boy on my coach is functioning strange, over the last couple of days while plugged into shore power I've been checking to see if it was warm and humming or cold and quiet. It seems to come on whenever it wants and will be energized for several hours and then I'll check it hours later and its cold and quiet. Will get back home in a couple of weeks and plan to take it apart and clean it. ….any thoughts
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:04 AM   #26
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Some BIRDs are programmed to check the condition of the combined battery. If it is at a full charge condition it will disconnect it. If its voltage drops again it will re-energize.

Find the brand and model of the BIRD and see what the operating conditions are.

Then with a good digital multimeter check the voltages at every point and situation.
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