Dumping Air

[flynnwalter]

Oldguy70
Since you put no name to whom you are replying, I don't know if it is me or not. As far as Monaco saying to shut the engine off to lower the jacks, our Cayman manual does not say that. And it is a 4 bag Cayman that this OP is asking about. It says you must have the engine running in order to lower the jacks. Sorry if I messed up.
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[flynnwalter]

Frank & Jeannie
Look to the left of your door on the outside of your coach for your 6 digit Monaco Coach Number and then call 1-800-634-0855 or whatever the current phone number is at ASV for Monaco. With your coach number you can ask what brand of jacks you have. If they are Lippert as ours, then my advice is sound. This is a great resource not available for most coach owners whose original maker has gone bankrupt as has ours (MCC).
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[JustCruising]

Hey Everyone

Thanks for the great feedback. I do have the owner's manual for the 2007, even though it is really generic. I downloaded the 2008 owner's manual because it provides much more info. I am thinking, and hopefully I am correct, the basics between the 07 and 08 Cayman should be about the same.

Frank-09 Cayman - We learned about the trailing arms immediately AFTER we purchased the 07. Glenn's Tires in Melbourne brought it to our attention when we took the coach in for service. After looking on the web at the damage caused by broken trailing arms, we replaced them right away. The risk was not worth taking.

So, let me state what I think I learned from this posting......

1. My Cayman does not have air leveling but it does have air bags to help keep the coach level during travel and to help with handling.

2. When setting up, the slides go out first and when taking camp down, the slides come in last (after the air system is filled). I have always done this.

3. The hydraulic leveling system on my Cayman is by Power Gear and I always try to auto level when setting up, careful to make sure the tires are not raised from the ground.

Our original question was raised after camping at Blue Springs State Park (not big rig friendly - many sites are small and over grown). When I first attempted to auto level, my right rear tire was raised off the ground. I dumped the air but that only made a difference of two, maybe three inches. Still, I could not level the coach without raising the right tire off the ground. Something I have been told is very unsafe. We decided to cut our visit to Blue Springs short and return home. We did not want to keep the slides out and not be able to level the coach.

In summary, the stated benefits of dumping the air is to prevent over extending the hydraulic leveling system and to get the entry to the coach as near to the ground as possible. I understand that to mean dumping the air on the Cayman is "optional" when setting up camp BUT the air bags must be full before putting the slides in when breaking camp. Also, I will drain the air tanks when we get off the road.

Thanks again everyone for taking time to share your thoughts! I always look forward to your input and advice.

Frank-Cayman 09 - Thanks for the Cayman advice!

Frank & Jeannie
Cayman 07




.

[flynnwalter]

Frank & Jeannie
Glad you 'got' it. Only caveat is that our hydraulics are by Lippert, so it might be different. If you experience some pretty unpleasant porpoising up and down in the front end--usually when going over a bridge or slight rise, or even the concrete highways, consider the Source Ride Enhancement Kit. It really works. Lastly, the RR4R is notoriously heavier on the passenger rear side, ours being 2700 lbs more than driver rear side. A four corner weighing (hard to find shops) is the only method to determine how much air you need in your rear tires. If you just use the total axle weight and divide by four, if your heavy side is anywhere near our 2700 lbs, then the heavy side will be under inflated, which sooner or later leads to a blowout. You mentioned Blue Springs and if you are in Florida you can make an appt at Josams in Orlando for a four corner weighing. If you did not get a new alignment after replacing the trailing arms, you need that, too. Recently we replaced our GY tires solely due to age as they had just 14k miles on them. We went up two tire sizes to Bridgestone Ecopia 295/75R22.5 as we determined the OEM 255s were too close to their max weight rating and had to be up near max psi to carry the heavy side rear. All tires on the same axle should be carrying the same psi. The idea behind increasing the tire size was 1. safety as they carried more weight 2. hoping to smooth the ride of the 255s which felt a bit like solid rubber tires while the Bridgestones carry more weight at less psi. 3. Get a common tire size that will be available most places should there be a blowout. The change in ride is amazing, but have put just 300 miles to date. Should you be interested in the tire change or have additional questions, feel free to contact me off line at flynnwalter@yahoo.com
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by CrossCountryMonaco

When I first attempted to auto level, my right rear tire was raised off the ground. I dumped the air but that only made a difference of two, maybe three inches. Still, I could not level the coach without raising the right tire off the ground. Something I have been told is very unsafe.

Yes, leveling so that any wheel is up in the air is not really a good idea, especially a rear wheel: they're the ones preventing you from rolling.

I have the same PowerGear jacks as you. Auto leveling works pretty well, but if the site is very un-level, like what you ran into, I find manual leveling to be a bit better. The auto leveling can be a bit too aggressive and try to raise the rig too high, lifting a wheel. In a situation where you ran into where a rear wants to come off the side, I will first dump the air, extend the front jack until it touches the ground, then run it a few more seconds to raise it a few inches to act as a pivot. Then extend the jack on the low rear side until level, and finally extend the other jack just until it touches the ground. If you do the high side rear jack first, then you end up with the rear higher than necessary (doing the low side first, the high side can actually come down a bit as the low side comes up, and if the high side jack is already down, it can't do that. I've found that auto leveling seems to want to get all the jacks on contact with the ground first, and then level, but this is not ideal on really bad spots.

I do a lot of dry camping and often have to deal with un-level sites. That process often works, but many times is not enough. I bought a sheet of pressure treated 3/4 exterior plywood, and diced it up into 18 squares that are 16" on a side. I then took pairs of squares, and fastened them face to face with construction adhesive and 1 1/4" screws. That gave me 9 pads that are 1 1/2" thick. Depending on the situation, I will put some under the jacks when on soft ground, or on really un-level sites I will drive the low side up onto one or more of them to get the rig closer to level before using the jacks, which prevents raising a tire off the ground. I often use some of them, sometimes all of them, and occasionally wish I had more.

Some people use 2-by lumber. I like the plywood pads because the are wide enough to fully support the tires (you should not use blocks that allow part of the tire to overhang) wide enough to spread the jack load on soft ground (I had friends who used 2x8 pads next to me that had to literally dig their pads out of the ground because they got pushed six inches below the grass) and they can't split like dimensional lumber can (I've had the plywood pads look like mushroom caps when used on soft ground, and they are none the worse for wear: I just flip them over the next time I use them and they flatten out.)

Hopefully one or more of these ideas will help you out the next time you run into a similar leveling situation.

[flynnwalter]

Adam
X2, excellent advice, especially use of the manual level versus auto. I worry about the one piece windshield popping out due to flexing of the frame since our auto level jerks the coach around. Lippert may be different(?) but it does put the front jack down first in auto level mode. When I dump the air, leveling manually is a bit tougher as I must have one finger on the dump valve switch as the engine must be running (for Lippert) to lower the jacks and the dump valve keeps the airbags from inflating again while lowering the jacks. I read that some folks wedge a matchbook or something underneath the air dump rocker switch temporarily to keep it dumping air, and I may just try that so I can avoid the auto level. Too far apart to do both simultaneously. Perhaps another example of MCC's 'pillow arrangers' dominance over engineers?
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by flynnwalter

Adam X2, excellent advice, especially use of the manual level versus auto.

Thanks! Nice to know I can occasionally say something useful.

Perhaps another example of MCC's 'pillow arrangers' dominance over engineers?

Ain't that the truth! It's clear that not many of their design engineers actually use the product. Like having a sleep number bed that you can't adjust while dry camping - none of my outlets by the bed are on the inverter, I have to start the generator to adjust the bed. I got a survey invitation a while back from them, asking for help to improve their products. Turned out to be useless: all of the questions were about colors and pillow arrangements, not a single question about making the coach more usable.

[flynnwalter]

Adam
Be careful what you wish for in reference to your sleep number bed not working on your inverter. If you have the usual MSW (modified sine wave) inverter as we do, it is hit or miss as to whether it powers electronics well or sometimes even burns them up. PSW (pure sine wave) inverters don't create this problem, apparently. We burned up our new Mr. Coffee the first time I used the inverter right there in the parking lot of the St Augustine Camping World the next morning after buying our brand new Cayman. Seems many electronics with a clock on it do not like MSW inverters. But we also have an electric mattress pad warmer the controls of which flash like crazy even when 'off' but just plugged in. Always something...
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[JustCruising]

Great idea about using the plywood! I currently use 2x8 cut to 16 inch length but will change out when we get back home. Makes more sense to displace more of the weight over a larger surface.

Wish I would of got your note about larger tires two weeks ago. :( Just put new Goodyear tires all the way around. Oh we'll, I will keep that in mind next time around. I know FMCA offers great deals on Michelins.

I did have the coach weighed and aligned. Will have to check if they did corner weight. I know it is 100 psi on front tires and 115 on the rear.

We are close to Orlando so I will check out the company you recommended when passing through.

Up and down movement? I know when we were on I-4 over by Daytona Beach I had to slow down to about 45 - 50 mph because the road was so rough and the coach was really "bouncing", especially going over some of the bridges on both I-4 and I-95. What is involved with installing the Source Ride Enhancement Kit? Something I believe will be worth the investment.

Frank & Jeannie
2007 Monaco Cayman XL

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by flynnwalter

Adam
Be careful what you wish for in reference to your sleep number bed not working on your inverter. If you have the usual MSW (modified sine wave) inverter as we do, it is hit or miss as to whether it powers electronics well or sometimes even burns them up.

I've heard that, but so far I've not run into problems with my MSW inverter. From reading other reports, it seems that the cheaper the electronics, the more likely one is to have a problem: coffee pots and electric blankets/pads are mass-produced commodity items that are very price sensitive and use the simplest and cheapest circuits - these marginally designed minimalist circuits are the most likely to have problems coping with "unclean" power.

Some people are leery about plugging in higher-end electronics into an MSW inverter, but in my experience they are better able to handle the power issues. My laptop power brick (it really looks and weighs like a brick - 170 Watts) gets a little warmer on the MSW, but then it gets pretty warm on pure sine wave shore power as well. Everything I've tried running on the inverter has not given me problems -- the microwave doesn't enjoy it but it works, and the inverter doesn't enjoy running the large floor stand dryer DW uses to dry dogs, but I've not yet burned anything up.

When you are making millions of coffee pots or electric blankets that are very price sensitive and sell for a low price, saving a dollar per unit by taking out the parts that deal with problem power can reap a huge improvement on profits. And if the item fails, people will rarely seek to make a warranty claim for such an inexpensive item, so the failure rate doesn't cost the manufacturer much (in fact, it may cause more profits as the item is replaced!) But on higher end items, which sell for more money and are built at lower volumes, spending that extra dollar or so to make it better handle bad power is not as much of an issue. Especially if it saves the manufacturer from having to replace the item under warranty (a person is much more likely to file a warranty claim on something like a DVD player or laptop then they are for a coffee pot.)

Early on, replacing the inverter for a pure sine wave was on my project list. But it's given me absolutely no problems, so I can think of better things on which to spend the time and money.

We're getting a bit off track here, but Frank & Jeannie seem to have gotten a lot out of this thread, maybe this will be useful to them as well...

[flynnwalter]

Adam
I hope others will learn from our experience, too. Mostly what I have read about MSW inverters is that anything with a clock on it is vulnerable. BTW, I contacted Samsung by email and they sent me a reply stating that their 197ACRS counter model residential refrigerator would work just fine on MSW power as long as it operated within the listed power. We installed one and so far it runs fine overnight on the inverter. We have the extra two 6 volt batteries (4 total) with 2k watt Magnum inverter, but our Cayman's Magnum not only does not have AGS (auto gen start) for keeping the batteries from discharging too much, etc., but also according to Magnum cannot be retrofitted with an AGS. If we are already running the generator while driving, we use it for the Samsung of course. If not then we still use the inverter and the batteries are charged via the alternator. Probably not great for extended dry camping, but we don't do that.
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[flynnwalter]

Frank & Jeannie
Good show. Josams will get you a 15 amp cord for overnight stay if you arrive by 4PM for next day service. They do alignments and build & train on big truck alignment equipment worldwide. BTW, Alliance Coach in Wildwood, Florida does super quality work. They installed our Source trailing arms as well as the Ride Enhancement Kit. Used to be a Monaco service center before MCC went bankrupt. And they have great knowledge about MCC Monacos. But they are not cheap.
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[flynnwalter]

Frank & Jeannie
Forgot your REK question. Yes, it works incredibly well. The first time after your REK install as your coach rears up for its slam down and you wince to prepare for it...you will smile as it rears up but never slams down. Now, I believe I could still make our coach porpoise for whatever reason, but haven't and will not. The REK, IMHO, treats the problem of the bucking that not only is unsafe as far as control of the coach, but also surely lends itself to breaking the trailing arms. (don't believe the Source arms will break) I have read about shower doors and tracks breaking, clothes in rear closets always ending up on the floor, the sliding door in bedroom breaking its track and getting stuck. So, yes it is important. We bought new at St Augustine Camping World at a great price and used the trailing arms issue we had just read about in FMCA magazine in December of 2009 as a bargaining tool to lower the price and get goodies free or free install with serious discounts from the Camping World Store side. Did not know about the need for the REK. So we now have the coach MCC should have built but did not. Probably couldn't get $100k for it, but we wouldn't take even more than that because we couldn't buy the equivalent of what we now have for $120k. While we are set, we are also 'stuck'. The question for you and others is: is it worth fixing? how long will I keep this coach? MCC made some great coaches and a used Diplomat or above is a fine motorhome. OTOH, if you want/expect to keep your Cayman, once fixed it is still a quality coach.
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida

[flynnwalter]

Frank & Jeannie
Source Engineering Inc.
Call Source and speak with them, they are extremely knowledgable about MCC Monacos as I believe Jim used to work for MCC.
Frank W. 09 Cayman
Lake City, Florida