Ems-hw50c

[Johnontheroad]

Originally Posted by 55stude

Thanks guys will order tonite. Also have 63 GT Supercharger and 53 project. David

Good for you. I'm on my third coach and all have had the EMS-50 installed.

One note, 6AWG wire is hard to work with in that small box. For me, it was easiest to just make a wire harness with all the bends in it and then cut and strip the wires. It gets hard to put the amperage sensor on the wires if they are not cut and stripped correctly.

== John

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

Mine is also in electric cord storage compartment, between shore cord and ATS. I know it's not protecting the power from the generator, but not too many power surges or other anomalies from there.

Originally Posted by flynnwalter

Wiley
We protect the transfer switch. Percentages seem to favor trouble more likely there than generator. But you could get another Progressive for the generator I guess.

I strongly disagree with these two opinions, I put my EMS-HW50 between the transfer switch and the main breaker panel. But then again, that's just my opinion, everyone has them.

The generator may not cause too many power surges, but it is susceptible to regulator failures that can cause large over-voltages, and other failures that can cause high or low voltage, or incorrect line frequency. I've read a bunch of posts about generator failures causing expensive damage to coaches and none about transfer switches being damaged by incoming power (burning out do to switching under load, or burning up due to poor quality and loose connections -- yes, but NOT because of power surges or post mis-wiring.)

And while it is possible for a transfer switch to be damaged by a severe surge like from a nearby lightning strike, if you've had a hit that bad you likely have much bigger things to worry about. Most of the things that the EMS guards against (high/low voltage, open neutral or ground, etc.) simply don't affect the transfer switch - when in shore power mode, it's pretty much just a set of relay contacts. On the other hand, the transfer switch can fail and corroded/burnt contacts can cause power problems that the EMS is designed to protect against: for example, if the neutral contacts on the transfer switch fail to close properly, you can get low voltage on one of the hot leads, and high voltage on the other, both of which can be equally damaging to the coach.

So, my thought is that the transfer switch doesn't really need protecting, but the coach does need protection from transfer switch and generator failures. To me, it's clear that the EMS should be installed AFTER the transfer switch. As a bonus, it lets you use the EMS display to monitor the Amps that the generator is putting out.

But to answer the original question, if the factory EMS is managing loads and shedding them to save power, then it's not the same type of EMS as the Progressive system -- go and get a Progressive now, you won't be disappointed.

I've had my EMS-HW50 shut off the power several times, so it definitely does it's job. I've had it tell me about open grounds, low voltage, and even high voltage that went over 145 volts in the middle of the night, every night -- I'm sure glad it saved me from that!

[StevenNSteph]

Originally Posted by ShapeShifter

I strongly disagree with these two opinions, I put my EMS-HW50 between the transfer switch and the main breaker panel. But then again, that's just my opinion, everyone has them.

X2 - The Progressive EMS unit protects your electrical system from a bunch of maladies that could potentily damage your electronic compononents. By protecting only the pedestal power and not the generator power you are not getting full protection. Mine has shut off the power twice while on using the generator, once for low voltage and once for something else (I forgot exactly what).

Personally I want all energy entering my coach to be "managed" by the progressive EMS.

[flynnwalter]

David
Welcome to the Future Home of mystudebaker.com
There is an extensive museum here in N. Fla outside Newberry. Stephen Allen used to run it, and we toured years ago as guests of a car club. Don't know anything more, except it brought back great memories. Avanti is beautiful.

[55stude]

Frank. Know Stephen and knew his father. Thanks for info. David

[MSHappyCampers]

Originally Posted by Rambling Man

To those that have the Progressive EMS-HW50C, is it installed between the power cord and the transfer switch, or between the transfer switch and the power distribution panel. In other words does it protect the coach from the generator and the power pedestal?

Wiley

Wiley, I installed mine between the power cord and the transfer switch.

[Gorlininc]

I'm thinking about installing a Safe Guard transfer switch 40250 -RVC. with surge protection.
Anyone have any thoughts

[Dr4Film]

Why would you spend the money for that device knowing that it is not guaranteed for life like the Progressive Industries units are PLUS the exceptional customer service that Tony provides when you do have a problem?

You won't find that at TRC!

Your money, your RV, your decision.

Dr4Film ----- Richard

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by Gorlininc

I'm thinking about installing a Safe Guard transfer switch 40250 -RVC. with surge protection.
Anyone have any thoughts

I have no personal experience with it, but I an read and understand spec sheets. The progressive EMS-HW50C seems to be the gold standard. This is what I see different between the SurgeGuard and Progressive units: (anything not mentioned is the same between both units)

Low voltage protection: the Progressive cuts out when below 104 volts, the SurgeGuard cuts out at 95 volts -- that's too low in my opinion, I think you can start doing A/C damage before then. Advantage: Progressive.

Low/High voltage protection: the SurgeGuard has a two second delay before tripping high or low voltage, so it won't trip on a momentary sag like when an air conditioner starts up. The Progressive does not, and will trip immediately, which could lead to nuisance trips if the voltage is already near the lower limit. Advantage: SurgeGuard

Frequency protection: SurgeGuard is 54-70 Hz range with 30 second delay, Progressive is 51 - 69 Hz with no delay. This is such a rare situation that it probably doesn't matter. The most likely cause is a governed generator where the speed may sag (reducing frequency) under a heavy start-up load, or may surge (increasing frequency) when a heavy load is turned off. The SurgeGuard has a time delay to account for this, the Progressive has a wider frequency low-end to account for this. This is rarely an issue with shore power, or with inverter based variable speed generators like most of the diesel Onan units that are on our coaches. Advantage: wash

Surge protection: SurgeGuard is 4-mode, 3,350 Joules, while Progressive is 5-mode, 3,580 Joules. A little more capacity on the Progressive, and an extra protection mode. The SurgeGuard sheet doesn't list which four modes are protected, I'm guessing that the neutral-ground mode supported by Progressive is the one that SurgeGuard skips. This isn't the most problematic source of surges, but extra protection is nice. Advantage: Progressive

Surge capacity: SurgeGuard has a 130.000 Amp peak rating, Progressive is 88,000 Amp peak. Both are huge numbers you're not likely to see without a direct lightning strike, at which point you probably have bigger issues. Advantage: SurgeGuard

Remote display: SurgeGuard has a plain text display (eg: Open Ground) while the Progressive shows codes (eg: E-7) Advantage: SurgeGuard

Previous Fault: Progressive shows the previous fault condition, SurgeGuard does not. Knowing the previous fault is useful to check if anything happened while you were gone, or if the power fault only lasts a few seconds and you can't read the display in time. Handy when you have unstable power and can't watch the display all of the time. Advantage: Progressive

Bypass: Progressive has a bypass switch in case there is a fault that is preventing power from reaching the coach, and you decide it's not really an issue and you can live with it for now. SurgeGuard does not. Advantage: Progressive

Replacement: All surge protectors take damage when absorbing a surge, and this can have a cumulative effect. Over time, it's likely that replacement will be necessary. Progressive is modular, and allows replacing the surge electronics without removing the entire unit and disrupting power connections. SurgeGuard makes no mention of this, may have to replace the entire unit. Advantage: Progressive

In summary, there are pros and cons to both units. I don't see a clear winner. At the time I bought my Progressive unit, SurgeGuard had nothing to match it and the choice was clear. SurgeGuard has since played catch-up and have comparable offerings. There are differences, but it's mostly a matter of details and preference.

At this point in time, I don't think you can go wrong with either brand (but not the entry level portable SurgeGuard units, they are not the same.) Either of them will be better than nothing.

It is interesting that SurgeGuard has a transfer switch that includes the protection features. That's a nice way to get both products in minimal space. I can't find any specs on the transfer switch, it wold be nice to see the relays and connection methods they use. If they use components sized like the IOTA transfer switches, I would stay away from it. even with the protection features.

It should be noted that all of this is based on comparing the spec sheets from the two companies -- opening them up and seeing how they are built might change some opinions. It also doesn't take into account compary reputation and warranty as mentioned by Dr4Film (Progressive has lifetime warranty, I can't find any warranty infromaton on the SurgeGuard pages.)

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by ShapeShifter

Replacement: All surge protectors take damage when absorbing a surge, and this can have a cumulative effect. Over time, it's likely that replacement will be necessary. Progressive is modular, and allows replacing the surge electronics without removing the entire unit and disrupting power connections. SurgeGuard makes no mention of this, may have to replace the entire unit. Advantage: Progressive

In summary, there are pros and cons to both units. I don't see a clear winner. At the time I bought my Progressive unit, SurgeGuard had nothing to match it and the choice was clear. SurgeGuard has since played catch-up and have comparable offerings. There are differences, but it's mostly a matter of details and preference.

At this point in time, I don't think you can go wrong with either brand (but not the entry level portable SurgeGuard units, they are not the same.) Either of them will be better than nothing.

It is interesting that SurgeGuard has a transfer switch that includes the protection features. That's a nice way to get both products in minimal space. I can't find any specs on the transfer switch, it wold be nice to see the relays and connection methods they use. If they use components sized like the IOTA transfer switches, I would stay away from it. even with the protection features.

It should be noted that all of this is based on comparing the spec sheets from the two companies -- opening them up and seeing how they are built might change some opinions. It also doesn't take into account compary reputation and warranty as mentioned by Dr4Film (Progressive has lifetime warranty, I can't find any warranty infromaton on the SurgeGuard pages.)

TRC, maker of Surge Guard, has no warranty information on their website as per search function on their website or downloadable documents. Doing a Google search the warranty document shows up:

http://trci.net/media/44653/sg%20war...090606d(7).pdf

ONE year limited warranty. (From other sources) They will not take back or repair a damaged unit, they have no facility to repair units. In addition, Most interestingly, Surge Guard, a device sold to protect against electrical surges: "The Warranty does not protect against acts of God, such as direct lightning strikes,.."

Progressive has a lifetime, transferable warranty. If it fails, they will diagnose over the phone and ship parts if desired (free) or you can remove the unit and ship it to them. I know this because a 50 amp EMS had been installed by a previous owner of my RV some time before I bought it. I had an issue and contacted Progressive. After going through a few steps on the phone, they shipped me a new control board. I had troubles installing it due to limited access, so I removed the EMS and shipped it to them. It was returned a few days later ready to be reinstalled. Very nice folks, return phone calls within hours of contacting them and super supportive.

So...Clear advantage: Progressive Industries. You can buy it once or buy it again each time it does it's job and sacrifices itself protecting your RV.

Regarding the combined Surge Guard EMS/Auto Transfer Switch: NOWHERE in the documentation and description does it mention a bypass switch should the EMS part fail. In that case you'd be SOL with no power into your RV from shore power or generator until you had the unit replaced.

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

In addition, Most interestingly, Surge Guard, a device sold to protect against electrical surges: "The Warranty does not protect against acts of God, such as direct lightning strikes,.."

To be fair, NOTHING will survive a direct lightning hit unscathed. A surge protector may help protect you against a nearby hit (probably sacrificing itself in the process) but save you from a direct lightning hit: never. You will probably have lots of damage, smoke, and fire with a direct hit, no matter what type of protection you have.

If you read the Progressive warranty, they say they will supply parts at cost for "Unforeseen Circumstances" which include "Natural disasters such as lightning..." If you have a lightning strike, you will not get a free repair from them. In fact, they don't even limit it to a "direct" strike: reading it at face value, it looks like you'll pay for any lightning related repairs.

I don't think anybody (even lightning rod manufacturers!) will unconditionally warrant something against a direct lightning strike. There is just too much energy and unpredictability involved.

Your other warranty points are well taken, however. Like I said, I was ONLY looking at the manufacturer-provided specs, I was not commenting on warranty or build quality (or customer support.)

[Gorlininc]

Hi ShapeShifter and Richard
Thank you both for your opinions. Which I respect very much. My original idea thought it would be nice to have both (surge protection and transfer switch) in one unit.
Richard I agree about the warranty. An important item indeed.
Shapeshifter. Thanks for the comparison. Progressive does seem to be the gold standard. I've read on other forums people who have surge guard seem to like them. But I think the progressive makes more sense.

One big question. Has your progressive ever trip. I'm on my third 8 month trip in my Monaco and never used a surge protector yet. So far I've been lucky and don't want to push it.

I have my dog which we leave in the motorhome at times. Never in thunderstorms or bad weather.
My question if it's warm out and the progressive trips. Is there an automatic reset? Or is the power off till I return? I worry about my dog overheating in an un-air conditioned
rig.
Thanks for your informative replies
Rick

[ShapeShifter]

Originally Posted by Gorlininc

One big question. Has your progressive ever trip.

Yes, many times. I never realized the kind of power problems you can run into until I got it.

It's tripped many times on low voltage.

At one dog show at a county fairgrounds, it even tripped every night when the loads would be reduced and the voltage would climb to over 140 volts! I felt sorry for people who weren't protected and were blissfully aware of the issue, I wonder what kind of problems they may have experienced?

It's tripped a couple times for open ground at a bad pedestal. While not a direct danger to the coach electrical system, it can be a significant safety issue for the coach occupants.

And I've had the occasional trip for other miscellaneous reasons.

I have my dog which we leave in the motorhome at times.

We always have from four to six dogs in the motorhome when we travel, some of them with long show coats (almost floor length hair.) That's one of the reasons we have the EMS and the auto gen start: if anything happens to the power, we don't want them to overheat.

My question if it's warm out and the progressive trips. Is there an automatic reset? Or is the power off till I return?

The Progressive automatically resets, and shows the reason for the trip as a "previous fault" code. So when we get back from the show ring, I can see if there was a problem while we were gone. In addition to automatically resetting, there is a delay (15 seconds or two minutes+) before the power comes on. I have it set for the longer delay: not only does it help protect the computers and satellite DVR from constant on/off cycles when power is really bad, it also helps save the air conditioners: two minutes gives enough time for the pressures to stabilize so that they don't try to restart immediately (which can overload the motor and trip the motor's protection circuit.) It looks like the SurgeGuard also auto resets and has a delay (but no previous fault code) but I have no personal experience with it.

So, if the power does trip, I know it will come back automatically as soon as the power is good, but not too soon to cause problems with the air conditioner. And if the shore power never returns to safe values, the auto gen start will start up the generator if the temperature starts to climb.

[Dr4Film]

I will concur with Adam's observations.

My PI EMS HW-50C unit has tripped the power off for a variety of reasons. Once for a nearby lightning strike that took out a transformer on the pole about 100 feet away. Many times for High Voltage. I never get any for Low Voltage because I use the PowerMaster VC-50 Voltage Booster prior to the HW-50C unit.

The EMS will auto-reset when the power returns to within the normal operating parameters. The display will show the last PE code (Previous Error) once power has been restored.

My Trace AGS system does not have a temperature sensor for when shore power has been severed so I purchased the Onan EC-30W unit and have that as my temperature backup system. It will detect when shore power has been severed. Then it will start monitoring the inside temperature of the coach. Once my set temperature has been reached it will start the generator. After the generator has been brought up to speed (I have a built-in delay in my system) the rooftop A/C's will start up and run once again. The generator will run until there's no more fuel or once power has been restored the generator will run for another 10 minutes and then shutdown.

My faithful companion is always well taken care of under any circumstances.

Dr4Film ----- Richard