Evans waterless coolant ??

[Stretch]

I just returned from Vegas and an automotive trade show (SEMA). One of the many booths displayed a waterless coolant for diesel engines by the name of EVANS. Basically EVANS uses a different type of chemical for antifreeze with no water added. They say the engine runs hotter but under control. And since diesels are heat engines better mileage is the result. To use this "waterless" coolant the cooling system must be completely drained, everywhere. Less than 5% water can remain. The thermostat must be replaced with a 210 degree type. The radiator cap must be modified so that it will hold no pressure. Pressure is no longer necessary cause the "waterless" coolant boils at 375 degrees.
So the engine runs hotter but under control.

Any coments? Has anyone used this stuff. Dam if I want to hurt my 60 series

Engne

[Mike Canter]

We used Evans in a nitrous drag car and it worked great and quarter mile at a time. I am not sure I would risk it in the 60. Wow, if that was to mess up it would probably cost you well over $10K because it would require new cylinder sleeves. Just think about what it would take to get the 60 out of your MH. I would recommend staying with a a Detroit recommended coolant and keep that coolant filter with additives changed on a regular basis. It is just not worth it and I don't see what is gained by it. Everybody claims there product gives you a MPG gain but you never see it. If it worked then the big trucking companies would be using it and the trucks would have it in from the start because if you compute the miles they drive any small change in MPG really adds up.

[Stretch]

Mike:
Go to the Evans website. They discuss a fleet that is using the product. They claimed a 1 mpg increase. I get 6mpg if it would raise mpg to 7, that is quite an increase.
I dont intend to use the product if and until I find lots of backup information.
BTW. You missed a good show at SEMA. All the OEMs are gearing up to go Electric with batteries and a small backup engine. Changes, changes.......

[evansguy]

Hey, what a coincidence; I was at SEMA too! Actually I work at Evans and was at the booth there. I'd like to correct a few things here.

Evans has the SAME chemicals as conventional anti-freeze (ethylene glycol and propylene glycol) but no water. Our coolant doesn't make the engine run hotter. You probably won't see fuel savings if all you do is change the coolant. Diesel engines need 3% water content or less. No modifications to the system are needed.

More in depth:
Water causes most of the problems that are associated with engine cooling. The boiling point of water is too close to the operating temperature of the coolant. Water is corrosive. The additives that must be used to protect engines from corrosion fall out of solution and so the anti-freeze must then be changed. The boiling point of water is also the culprit that causes pump cavitation and cylinder liner erosion.

Evans' high boiling point makes our coolant very durable in terms of dealing with the stresses of engine cooling under bad conditions. A hot day, heavy load, low air flow, and other factors can make the coolant temperature rise. With a water based anti-freeze, the operating temperature collides with the boiling point causing a cooling failure. With Evans Coolant, the coolant temperature rises, but no trouble is encountered. A 230F coolant temperature is nothing to worry about. In racing, I had a blocked radiator bring my coolant temperature up to 297F without engine damage.

Evans doesn't need the additives to fight corrosion, and so it doesn't go bad with time or use. It lasts the lifetime of the vehicle and we've had over the road trucks use the same fluid for over 1 million miles.

Cylinder liner cavitation erosion is a major problem in the trucking industry that is the cause of a full engine rebuild based on mileage. The John Deere Cavitation Erosion Test has recently been adopted by the ASTM to measure a coolant's ability to fight the erosion. A general pit count of 150-200 is common (less is better) and their best ever count was 80. Our coolant scored 20 and that number won't change as the coolant ages as it does with anti-freeze.

We can save fuel in big diesels by using 2 techniques. An independent test showed a gain of 3% in fuel economy by using a higher temperature thermostat. For trucks with ECM controlled radiator fans, we change the parameter to turn the fan on at a higher temperature. Depending on the truck and how it is used, we can cut the fan run-time by up to 60%; the fan takes 50 horsepower at moderate engine speeds. We have seen fuel economy savings of 8% by using both techniques.

Manufacturer warranties can not require the use of the manufacturers brand products. To deny a claim, they must prove that the failure is due to our coolant and we've never had an engine failure due to our product. We've sold waterless coolants since the 1980's. In the end, we also have insurance to cover an engine failure that is caused by our coolant, but have not had to accept, fight, or pay any claims because our coolant hasn't damaged any engines.

I don't mean to walk into this site trying to sell a product; it's in bad taste and not proper "guest etiquette". I do want to clear up misconceptions and be available to answer questions. I have a "mini RV", a Ford E-350 box van modified into an RV. I used it for years while I was road racing motorcycles and it certainly paid for itself in saved hotel bills.

[Stretch]

Evans guy:

You obviously know your product. So let me ask you..........

I have a $50,000 GVW coach with a 60 series Detroit. The coach has a side mounted fan. We have an Allison transmission.

Seems to me the fan is going to be on most of the time cause no "ram air" thru radiator. So no savings there.

The cooler for the Allison is in the radiator. So if the coolant heats up the transmission will run hotter. I dont think Allison with like that.

The heat transfer ability is best with pure water. Therefore the heat transfer ability of EVANS is going to be worse.

So what do we do? speed up the water pump? I know you need to change the thermostat to a 210degree or higher unit. So everything IS going to run hotter.

And lastly I feel strange messing with a million mile motor that is bulletproof and has not givin me a lick of problems.

Your turn

[evansguy]

Well, I guess my question would be why you want to change the system? We've had good experiences with the Series 60. We probably would cut your fan time because it is on so much of the time, our best results have been with trash trucks that work hardest when at a standstill. Cooling systems become more efficient when there is a bigger difference in temperature between coolant temp and air temp. It's easier to take heat out of the coolant when the coolant is hotter.

You are correct that water has better heat transfer properties, up until the point where it boils. Once it boils, it's a really bad coolant. This is a factor when it comes to overheating and cavitation issues. You can safely increase the pump speed without cavitation troubles which will reduce the coolant temp.

You do not NEED to go to a higher temp T-stat. No mods are needed to use our coolant. For the purposes of use in an RV, the goal may not be fuel savings. Many RVs don't put the miles on that a 5% fuel savings would become important. The bigger issue may be one of maintenance or de-rating.

Does your RV de-rate? De-rating is when the computer sees a high coolant temp and reduces the fuel that is fed to the engine. The RV will make less power. If this doesn't help enough (in an extreme situation) auto-shut down can be triggered. I have no idea if this is actually a problem in the RV community. Sometimes de-rating can be subtle enough that the driver doesn't know it's happening.

The maintenance side may be the most important to an RV owner. Once your RV is converted to Evans, there is no more fluid maintenance needed. No changing the coolant every 2 years, no additive package upkeep. This is the issue that makes our coolant popular in the electric power generator industry. We make no system modifications to generators.

We have not had problems with the Allison transmission cooler issue, but do acknowledge that it's not the greatest set up. We prefer an oil to air cooler rather than an oil to coolant cooler.

In the end, if you don't have overheating issues, don't drive enough miles to really gain from a 5% savings, and don't mind the OEM recommended service intervals, it may be more bother to change the coolant than it's worth. You could just change the coolant and nothing else to save on maintenance, or you could do the full treatment with thermostats and Resistorpak (the change that raises the fan-on temp and de-rating temp).

[Mike Canter]

If I might add something here. Agreed water is the best in transfering heat but it will boil when it gets against the cylinder sleeves and create steam bubbles which is a an insulation so the area against the sleeves gets hotter and creates more bubbles so very fast you get a thermal runaway and then overtemp and boil over. If the coolant is old then you get a small amount of this against the sleeves which damages the sleeves and as already said results in a required overhaul. I agree that the Evans coolant will stop this problem and should last forever. The question is what will happen if it doesn't live up to its expectations. Will Evans pay for the overhaul?

[evansguy]

Hi Mike,

Respects on this Veterans' Day. Thank you.

"Doesn't live up to expectations" is a little open ended. If you expect Evans Coolant to drop the temperature of the coolant that you see on the dial, you could be disappointed. I don't think the company would pay to put anti-freeze back in. If your engine is damaged due to our coolant; we have insurance that would cover that. If you do a bad job converting and have too much water in the coolant at the end, it is not covered. Too much water in Evans Coolant will make it perform the same as conventional anti-freeze in terms of boiling point, cavitation, corrosion, etc. We don't have corrosion inhibitors, so the corrosion could be worse than with anti-freeze, but I don't know what the rate would be if you only had, say 10% water. In gas engines, you need 5% or less water content. In diesels, you need 3% or less. This is because of the vibration in diesels makes them more prone to cavitation erosion.

[Stretch]

Evans guy:

I now think I understand how Evans will work in my coach. And to correct what I said earlier. I do not have a trans cooler imerged in the radiator. I have an air to trans fluid type. So not a problem.

Now my next question is why should we spend the $$ to by Evans when we could just buy the two different types of coolant and mix it 50/50 and go about our business?

[evansguy]

This is pretty funny because I've had the same conversation in the motorcycle racing world, but about 6 years ago!

You can do what you want on mixing your own coolant, but...

We've done a lot of research to come up with the right ratio of glycols. It's a balance between too much of one (too viscous with cold weather problems) or too much of the other (low boiling point). If you use off the shelf anti-freeze that is not pre-mixed with water, it has all the additives that eventually fall out of solution. They won't cause a problem other than adding to the sludge at the bottom of the system. The additives need some water to mix with, so anti-freeze without water still has water in it. It's not enough water to hurt the boiling point, but if there's still water left in the system when you fill it, it can add up to too much. If you find a source of glycol that is simply industrial grade that doesn't have water or additives, you're on the right track, but usually by this time people have figured it isn't worth the bother. Do what you want for your own equipment, but if you sell it we'll come after you like we did with GM. (I'm not serious about caring because I don't think anybody here would actually cause a problem. Our real counterfeit issues are in China where we sell so much, a fake product market has popped up. Car dealerships there are making more money installing Evans in new cars than they make on the new car sale. Yes, we make the coolant in Ohio and ship it to Shanghai!) Shell Oil makes a copy of our coolant, but they don't sell it. They supply their Formula One team with it.