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Old 06-28-2015, 02:36 PM   #15
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Try getting on a lonely straight road and applying brakes from 50 or so MPH almost as a panic stop several times in succession until you smell the brakes. If there is any glaze the procedure will improve you braking tremendously. Most RVers, myself included, use the engine or exhaust brake effectively so the service brakes rarely get a workout and glaze over.
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:51 PM   #16
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Just for referenced my 2008 Endeavor stops exceptionally well with little pedal pressure. I have adjustable pedals just for reference.

Here is some information I have gathered.

In nearly forty years of moving trucks in and out of our service bays to install two way radios I never remember any having brakes that were difficult to push. They were not driven any distance, just pulled in and out of our bays. That includes buses, trucks, fire trucks etc.

My last MH was on a gas chassis and had dangerously difficult brakes. I had them worked on under warranty but they were never good enough for me to let my wife drive it on the highway. She would have not problem with the brakes on this one.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Air Brake general info.pdf (2.64 MB, 248 views)
File Type: pdf Air system schematic (1).pdf (1,007.5 KB, 44 views)
File Type: pdf Air system schematic (2).pdf (1.64 MB, 40 views)
File Type: pdf Air system schematic (3).pdf (101.2 KB, 40 views)
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:22 AM   #17
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According to the attached article, the brakes need to be applied to a 60% or better level several times for the automatic slack adjusters to adjust. We, the ever cautious MH driver, are always on alert for upcoming issues and almost never hit the brakes that hard. Should be a part of our rollout every time. Safe travels.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...0eXu01Cq-Kx8JQ
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:05 AM   #18
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The Idealease Safety Bulletin is provided for Idealease affiliates and their customers and is not to be construed as a complete or exhaustive source of compliance or safety
information.


The Idealease Safety Bulletin is advisory in nature and does not warrant, guarantee, or otherwise certify compliance with laws, regulations, requirements, or
guidelines of any local, state, or Federal agency and/or governing body, or industry standards
.

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Old 06-29-2015, 08:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanwill View Post
Actually, pressing the brake pedal would not just open a passage, or the air would continue to build in the air cylinders at each wheel. Pressing the pedal is operating some pressure-balanced piston (as in an air compressor's pressure regulator, where the adjustment spring is the equivalent of the brake pedal). I'm hoping someone has experience adjusting the balance pressure on this device, or diagnosing some problem that requires excessive pedal pressure to cause sufficient air pressure to be admitted to the wheel cylinders.

Thanks for your response, though. You are largely right about how things operate. I just need some details about the adjustment, if there is one.
There is nothing adjustable in the tredle valve. A lot of factors are involved with poor braking when it comes to air brakes. Contaminated air systems and lack of required maintenance can create real problems.
I would seek professional help.
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
The Idealease Safety Bulletin is provided for Idealease affiliates and their customers and is not to be construed as a complete or exhaustive source of compliance or safety
information.


The Idealease Safety Bulletin is advisory in nature and does not warrant, guarantee, or otherwise certify compliance with laws, regulations, requirements, or
guidelines of any local, state, or Federal agency and/or governing body, or industry standards
.
u
I only wanted to give the OP a way to adjust his automatic slack adjusters. Idealease put this on the Internet, so I don't appreciate a lot of pontificating.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:54 PM   #21
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Thank you for reminding us of the procedure of tightening the slack adjusters Mike. Sanford
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:40 PM   #22
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Air brake systems are completely different than a regular hydraulic system on a car. It amazes me that people expect them to work the same as their car. You are talking about a vehicle that out weighs your car by up to 10 times the weight or more. It only reinforces my position that people should at least be required to read up on air brake systems or better yet pass a test certifying their understanding of how these systems work. It is not a case of climbing in and pushing the peddle and not worrying about anything else. These systems need to be maintained and adjusted from time to time and once you have that knowledge you can answer alot of your own questions and be confident in your own safety.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:29 PM   #23
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Thanks Myron for posting the schematics and Bendix book. Interesting reading.

I am curious to hear what Van finds out about brake pedal effort. I am sure once he gets to the bottom of this (and I am confident he will!!) we will all know a lot more about how these systems work and how to diagnose problems with them. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that there is not some way to adjust pedal effort (or correct a hard pedal).

My coach is not bad at all, although stiffer than a car, of course. My previous DP on a Freightliner chassis was about the same as the present coach but I had a good bit more brake authority. I presume this is due to the lighter weight of a 34'.

What I like about this forum is the abundance of very knowledgable and creative contributors who share what they know with everyone.

All the best.

Roy
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:33 PM   #24
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Gentlemen and any of the fairer gender following along......

Allow me to put this as simply as I can.

#1 You do not: guess, attempt, relate hydraulics, or anything else on your brakes! You have only one chance to stop at that intersection or for that confused elderly person or child in the road. In fact most large truck fleets do not allow their drivers to even adjust there own brakes unless they own the truck.

#2 educating yourself is wonderful and wise..... Simply so you can better explain your concerns to a qualified mechanic/technician without pointing at that thingy and hose leaky things.

Please, please, please do not attempt to fix a brake issue over the internet unless you are stuck on the moon. I can go on for hours talking about and answering questions about our foundation brakes and the systems that at play from your foot to the drums/disks that are doing the labor to bring that up to 55k GCVW to a stop.

Am I knowledgable and capable of doing my own? Yes, but that is due my continued experience in the field. Can I watch a YouTube video on cabinetry and make a new surround for my microwave? Yes, but no one dies if I make an ugly cut or joint.

They don't install application gauges in our coaches so we don't see the pressure we are applying from stop to stop. Yet again, I would not like to tell anyone else which ports to tie into to find out, unless I was standing there doing it.

When I picked this new to me coach
up in Colton, CA last week and drove it home the disk brakes did not impress me compared to the drums in my 04 Santiam. When I got home I checked the brakes and found the drives waaaay out of adjustment (would of been red tagged if inspected and commercial). I adjusted them and now it stops waaaay better. Now, say I did it backwards and hit a car leaving my house or maybe a bus of orphans..... Who is to blame?

This is long winded I realize but this subject is not something I take lightly. I have always felt that I don't care if A/C works or the stereo or how shiny the paint or wheels are, or how fast you climb a hill or what mpg you get. All this is because you only get ONE CHANCE to steer around that obstacle or stop for it.

It's not just your life, it's spouse, kids, grandkids, kids on the sidewalk, Nuns in the crosswalk, that guy with the limp and the football helmet on standing on one foot just off the curb in Lost Hills CA whose on the verge of passing out with the silver paint on his lips (poetic isn't it).

Take this info you've gathered here and make an appointment at any competent truck shop or dealership and seek out their advise. Most will gladly give an honest opinion and the more facts you can give them may well help them get to be bottom of this sooner (less $$ out of pocket).

I'm out,

Allen - working diesel mechanic and rv owner.
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Old 06-29-2015, 11:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
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I could have easily penned the above comment myself. My first experience with air brakes came when we took possession of our coach at couple of months ago (last weekend in March). Without an basis for my expectations, I figured that the brakes would be similar to that of a "power brake" pedal on a passenger vehicle - and had a fleeting moment of panic when I moved my foot over to the brake pedal for the very first time and nothing happened. The amount of "leg" required to actual the coach brakes definitely took me by surprise.

That said - it took all of about 2 seconds to adjust to the "feel" of the brakes. I've now got 1,500 miles of experience with them under my belt and I'm convinced it was just a case unrealistic expectations - and not an issue with how the brakes function, perform and/or are adjusted.
Most people are surprised at how little force is required and almost put themselves through the windshield. On one test drive the salesman commented on it. What is really different is the extra time that it takes for the system to respond, just a few milliseconds longer but at 60 mph that can be 10 feet before the brakes take hold.
Our rig has all wheel air disk and it can really stop with just normal foot pressure. But if you have drum brakes and they become glazed then they will not stop like they should.
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Old 06-30-2015, 09:47 AM   #26
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There is nothing adjustable in the tredle valve. A lot of factors are involved with poor braking when it comes to air brakes. Contaminated air systems and lack of required maintenance can create real problems.
I would seek professional help.
Unfortunately, in my lifetime, I have been severely disappointed the vast majority of times I've consulted a "professional" or an "expert". In almost every case, I've found that *I* become the expert, after digging into a problem and educating myself on it...but far too often after wasting time and money on "expert" help.

Those of us who have participated in working out the successes of the "Wandering" and "Sheppard-to-TRW swap" threads can attest to the fact that there are sure a lot of "experts" out there who will tell you that you are wasting your time, or don't know what you are talking about...or can discourage you in many ways.

Apart from my own research on any given topic, I've found this forum to be the single most valuable resource of folks who genuinely ARE experts with "hands on" experience with a problem, and not just folks parroting what they have read.

Thanks for all your responses. If one of you talented folks doesn't give me the answer, I'll dig into it and figure something out. I do 99.7% of all the work on my coach--120VAC and 12VDC electric, electronic, engines, transmissions, brakes, cabinet work, residential fridge swaps, suspension and steering repairs/upgrades, body work, painting, air systems, etc.
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:15 AM   #27
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This may be purely anecdotal, but there is one response in this thread from someone relating their experience with a coach that had air-operated disk brakes. They said the pedal effort required was very similar to that of a car. That jives with my only experience with another coach with air-operated disk brakes. The coach was a 1994 Sig. It surprised me that its brake pedal effort required for stopping was so minimal. I had just finished replacing all (20) of his trailing arm/Panhard rod bushings (MAMMOTH job!) and was test driving it.

When we returned from the test drive, I crawled under and paid more attention to his braking system. True, the mechanism used to operate the disk brake caliper was nothing similar to the S-cam layout on my drums. But it just serves to show there is no TECHNICAL/ENGINEERING reason that the brake pedal pressure cannot be lower. It may turn out that there is some reason that drum brake systems are BETTER OFF with a higher required pedal effort for stopping, but I've not researched that yet. After all, when automobiles switched from drum brakes to disks, we didn't all have to re-learn how to apply brakes, did we?

I DO now know how a treadle valve is made and how it operates. It's basically a self-relieving, pressure-balanced air pressure regulator operated by a foot pedal. I don't mean to sound smug, condescending or sarcastic--I definitely dislike that in forums. But, folks, this treadle valve ain't rocket science.

This project is pretty far down my "short list" but I'll reply with what I find out when I finally get to it.

Thanks again for all those who tried to help!
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Old 06-30-2015, 10:31 AM   #28
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You all done dazzling US, with your knowledge .

If you know, don't ask.
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