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12-04-2013, 07:37 PM
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#1
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Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 38
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My 525 ISX just turned into a 500 ISM...
...In the blink of an eye...
Last Dec, DW and I purchased our 2003 Monaco Signature from Lazydays, Tucson. This was carried out primarily as a telephone deal, as I was staying in Denver at the time. Salesman described the coach and sent lots of pictures. He emailed me a description, mentioning the 525 ISX as the engine (Optional in 2003 , the 500 ISM came standard). Picture below was included. So we bought the coach, life went on, and am now hanging out around Tucson, while Lazydays finishes up with my Norcold issue (posted here) So yesterday, finally made it to Cummins Rocky Mountain in Mesa to have my Jake brake looked at. (posted here). Technician asks me about the 525 placard on the motorhome. He said you have an ISM, not an ISX... Engine number verified that I have a 500hp ISM in my Sig. I couldn't believe it. This is my first DP, I have never been close to a Cummins before, so I had not been able to identify the 'wrong' engine before now.
So during the negotiations, both Lazydays and I valued this coach based on the assumption it had the ISX. Today, NADA numbers (here, 42'6" Signature Chancellor) adds a premium of $5800-7000 for the ISX (wonder what that upgrade cost new..oh, that would be about $17k)! Lazydays, Tampa, sold this coach new in 2003.
I do not believe that I was intentionally deceived, but I didn't get what I paid for. That $6-7k hit to my coaches value is real.
I will approach management tomorrow, I don't know what to expect. Don't even know what to ask for...
Who regulates this industry?
__________________
Cliff Addison
2002 Winnebago Adventurer (Summer in Alaska)
2003 Monaco Signature (Outside roaming till next summer)
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12-04-2013, 08:38 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Freeport, ME
Posts: 4,707
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Are you saying the engine had a plate on it saying it was a 525 ISX? If so that doesn't seem like the dealer intentionally tried to screw you. You can call Monaco and they can email you the window sticker so you can see what the engine option originally was. Once you get that and if it says it was a 525 ISX then you should go to another Cummins diesel with the serial number of the motor or call Cummins and ask them. If it is a ISM-500 then I think LazyDays should adjust there price. The ISM-500 is a great motor and you will be happy with it and probably not tell the difference.
__________________
Mike Canter
"Gunner" USN Retired, Airdale
2004 Monaco Signature 44' Conquest. Detroit 60
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12-04-2013, 08:43 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 472
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Wow!
That really stinks, it would appear that a previous owner just slapped a ISX emblem on it and the dealership did not do their due diligence in describing the coach.
Obvioulsy we are not aware of the terms of your purchae but I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be caught in the paperwork or at least in the shop when they PDI'd your coach for delivery - like fluids and filters etc.?!
Unfortunately, on the other hand the dealer likely sold you the coach as-is, its been over a year since aquisition and I need to ask..... Did you ever actually look at the manufacturers build sheet on the unit before you handed over your cash??
I guess its worth a try, that is to say - see if you can get something out of it!
At the end of the day you still have a awesome engine and I'm sure it has a full service life ahead of it.
Let us know how you make out!
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Al
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12-04-2013, 08:48 PM
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#4
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Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 38
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Placard was on the back of the coach, just above the engine cowl. Engine data plate is clear... ISM 500. Glad to find out it is a good engine. So just what does that 6 or 7 or 17 thousand dollars buy you in addition to the 25 extra HP on the ISX?
__________________
Cliff Addison
2002 Winnebago Adventurer (Summer in Alaska)
2003 Monaco Signature (Outside roaming till next summer)
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12-04-2013, 08:50 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 571
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The problem is that you won't be able to identify who put that placard on there. Lazydays Tampa may well have sold it as an ISM and the purchaser might have installed the placard purely for ego reasons.
Unfortunately, you can only rely on the goodwill of your dealer. The loss of value is real, but ultimately the onus is on the purchaser to know what it is he is buying.
Perhaps approaching your dealer from the position that you were both unwittingly duped, they could be convinced to provide you a certain number of service visits gratis to offset your loss and maintain their good relations.
How many oil/filter changes would it take to amount to $5K?
__________________
2022 Keystone Cougar 24RDS
2017 F350 6.7L CCLB DRW 4x4 Ruby Red
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12-04-2013, 09:02 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 472
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My knowledge base is somewhat limited on this topic, but to continue the conversation - I don't even see the ISX engine available as a option until 2005.
The ISX had a little extra HP and @ 100 Ft lbs more TQ. The numbers were close to the Detroit that Monaco was offering of the same vintage which I think was about 515 and 1650 TQ.
Both where mated to the 4000 MH. Or at least in the Monaco line-up.
__________________
Al
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12-04-2013, 09:37 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cosby, Tn
Posts: 6,587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogcliff
Placard was on the back of the coach, just above the engine cowl. Engine data plate is clear... ISM 500. Glad to find out it is a good engine. So just what does that 6 or 7 or 17 thousand dollars buy you in addition to the 25 extra HP on the ISX?
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Nobody likes to feel deceived so I understand your upset. Maybe I can help you feel better about the situation. '03 was the first year the ISX was offered by Monaco. The DD Series 60 was also offered for the first time. The M11 and the later ISM were the traditional engine in the 2 top Monaco's. The ISX was rated at 25 hp and 100 pounds/feet of torque above the ISM the down side is the ISX weighs 800 pounds more than the ISM. The ISM in the '03 Signature is very trouble free it does not have an EGR valve which was a source of problems. It does not have the VG turbo which was complicated and prone to problems early on. It's capable of very good fuel economy which the ISX is not. I've lived full time in an '03 Sig with the ISM for 7 years now. I would not trade even for an ISX. The big 15 liter engine is great but ISM is pretty spectacular in a motorhome.
__________________
Steve Ownby
Full time since 2007
2003 Monaco Signature
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11-20-2015, 07:53 PM
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#8
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Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Fresno CA
Posts: 27
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Steve is correct between the 500 ISM and 525 ISX. We have a ISX 600 when it left Monaco. I took it to Cummins and had it reflashed to 650 very little difference, how ever it will run if you want to go that fast. That being said 5.5 to 6.5 mile per gal. for the ability to clime hills in the run down the road @ 65
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2006 Signature ISX 600 45' Castle
2006 Rubicon
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11-20-2015, 08:48 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: On the Road
Posts: 1,608
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I wish mine had turned out to be ISM. If you want to feel better Google "problems with ISX" then do the same with ISM. You'll find very little reading with the latter. I'd sleep much better if I was in your position.
2007 Monaco Executive 45' 525 ISX
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2012 Nu Wa 363RSBDA
2016 Ford F-350 Dually 6.7
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11-21-2015, 07:26 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Signal Hill, California
Posts: 3,320
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I have a Cummins 650 HP plastic "decal" on the back of my Monaco. That was my least expensive power mod since I got it FREE from a Cummins rep at a RV show. That way when I go up a hill SLOW it looks like I'm doing it on purpose. It also is a very good conversation starter at CGs. Sanford P. S. I have the smallest most fuel efficient Cummins Diesel 340 HP 6.7L which was just flashed last week. It is now a 350 HP with 750 lbs of torque.
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Sanford, Linda & R cats: Molly, Levi, Cody
2011 Monaco by Navistar RV
Good Sam Life Member Good Sam Hams Chapter
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11-21-2015, 06:30 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 789
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Well now you will be able to see if you get better fuel mileage with your 500 ISM then you did with your old 525 ISX.
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11-21-2015, 06:39 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Country Coach Owners Club Solo Rvers Club iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 37,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerman
Steve is correct between the 500 ISM and 525 ISX. We have a ISX 600 when it left Monaco. I took it to Cummins and had it reflashed to 650 very little difference, how ever it will run if you want to go that fast. That being said 5.5 to 6.5 mile per gal. for the ability to clime hills in the run down the road @ 65
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Sounds low. we're getting 7.6 in our Magna.
But frankly I wish we had an ISM rather than our ISX! Although a friend has an Essex with the ISM 500 and also had some expensive trouble with it too.
__________________
2009 45' Magna 630 w/Cummins ISX 650 HP/1950 Lbs Ft, HWH Active Air
Charter Good Sam Lifetime Member, FMCA,
RV'ing since 1957, NRA Benefactor Life, towing '21 Jeep JLU Rubicon Ecodiesel
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11-21-2015, 06:41 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Country Coach Owners Club Solo Rvers Club iRV2 No Limits Club
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Vancouver, WA
Posts: 37,725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogcliff
Who regulates this industry?
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You do, by checking things out before buying. As others have said, I would also have to say the dealer took the previous owner's word as to what was in the rig.
__________________
2009 45' Magna 630 w/Cummins ISX 650 HP/1950 Lbs Ft, HWH Active Air
Charter Good Sam Lifetime Member, FMCA,
RV'ing since 1957, NRA Benefactor Life, towing '21 Jeep JLU Rubicon Ecodiesel
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11-23-2015, 06:13 AM
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#14
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: reynoldsburg, ohio
Posts: 432
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to answer your last question as to who regulates them, no one........if you really want to press the issue, the attorney general of the state where you purchased it might be an option, but otherwise, and based on the other posts, you may be better off with the 500.........just remove the 525 plate on the rear....................
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