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CatchinRays · 09-24-2016, 09:08 PM

I just test drove the 45' 2005 Navigator we have under contract pending inspections and what-not....so I have a couple of questions:
First of all, the tachometer was jumping all over the place - so I don't know what that's from. Also, none of the controls on the steering wheel worked - the cruise control, wipers, horn...any of that stuff - so you'd think that would be easy to trace out. But another thing, with the DD Series 60, we got up to 70 with no problem and it was awesome to ride on 10 airbags, but with such low running RPM's, I shouldn't expect peppy right? I mean, when I romped on the pedal, it doesn't jump up, it just slowly but surely gets to whatever speed you want - but I figure that is normal. Also, the window on the driver's side and the door on the passenger side do whistle quite a bit when a stout cross wind and 70 mph - so is that normal? And Lastly, with the oil pressure gauge on the dash not working, we had to rely on the Alladin for the RPM's and the oil pressure - so what should the oil pressure on a 2004 14.0L DD Series 60 be? It was showing 47 psi at idle and around 57 at 1500-1700 rpm. Thanks for any help

adamfolger · 09-24-2016, 10:07 PM

First off I would not buy a coach that has non working gauges. The smart wheel in awesome and should work. If these things can't be fixed by the dealer I would run away. These are majorly complicated systems. Could be just blown fuses and bad grounds, so the dealers service dept should be able to fix.

Diesels do not accelerate, they build bust to move the barn up to speed. The go pedal is a throttle position sensor that tells the computer what speed you are requesting. It takes a while to respond, while the engine and Allison discuss whether your request is reasonable.

Stretch · 09-24-2016, 11:35 PM

47 to 57 is excellent. Alladin is far more accurate than Gage's.

K7JV · 09-25-2016, 06:07 AM

Could be a nice coach, if the price is right. You have some good ammunition there to maybe talk them down a fair amount if they won't just repair the problems. Or you could identify all the problems you can (and you've done well so far) and commit them to make them good.

Tach - Possibly as simple as a loose connection at the dash. Also, the tach information (i think) comes from a connection on your alternator, and the connection there could be iffy. Or the problem could be in the alternator itself. That could approach $1,000 if a replacement or rebuild is required. They really should get to the bottom of that for you, or if they are not qualified or able to take care of it, contract to reimburse you for repairs.

Steering wheel - There is a "clock spring" in the steering wheel that transmits the inputs from the buttons to the control unit. The springs do fail, and the result is what you are experiencing. Again, they should reimburse you for that repair. It's not as bad as it sounds, and you can Google how to replace it yourself, if you want to take that on. Or, it could be the SmartWheel controller in the front run box on the outside of the coach, under the drivers side window could be in trouble. It is a black square box about 6" square and maybe 1 ½" thick. They are $500 or $600, as I recall, but you could replace it yourself. You can find procedures to troubleshoot that system on this forum or by Googling it if you want to see what is actually involved.

Pep - Adam is right. At highway speeds, there isn't a lot of torque available to the wheels due to the gearing. Passing someone on a two lane road at highway speeds takes LOTS of planning and extreme care. That's when I envy the guys and gals with the 600 HP units.

Whistle at 70 - On the entry door on our coach, if we don't ensure the door closes firmly (there are two catches), it will be a bit noisy at road speeds, and especially in the wind. There is an inflatable air seal around that door. The air supply may not be working, or the seal itself may have been damaged and leaking, which would compromise the system. It's not complicated, but I'm sure $$$$ are involved. Again, they should check that out, or see that its checked out. We almost never drive 70 MPH. Most tow vehicles owners manuals state that 65 is the maximum tow speed. Also, at 70 MPH you will drop your fuel mileage almost 1 MPG over driving 65. If that rig has the Cummins ISL, and is in the 40,000 pound class, I would expect a maximum of 8 MPG and a minimum of around 6.5 MPG. If you like to drive 70, expect the latter. (Those numbers are with towing a 5,000 pound car, as we almost never drive the coach without the car attached.) On the drivers side window, I wonder if the weatherstripping is dried up and causing the problem. That could be pretty annoying, unless the problem eases off at 65 MPH, or so. Finally, you said "stout crosswind". In what I would call stout crosswinds, there is considerably more wind noise than what you should normally experience. Up to maybe 15 MPH crosswinds, you shouldn't be getting excessive noise, but above that, we surely do in our coach.

Oil pressure - I agree with Adam and Stretch. Fifty-seven is great. Forty-seven at idle is actually quite high. It's not uncommon for it to drop into the teens at idle. So you should be good on that. Adam's right about the Aladdin (or Silverleaf) being much more accurate than the gauge. Again, you could look for connections at either end, or if the sensor on the engine is bad, that could be relatively easily replaced.

Good luck in your coach search process. Look for evidence that the coach has been well maintained. Drive train maintenance records would be very important to me. That's big! Make sure all of the creature comfort systems work, like the HVAC equipment, water systems and tanks, plumbing is leak-free and in good condition, lighting and fans, leveling systems, generator, inverter/charger system, battery age and condition (both chassis and coach), hose and cable retract systems (if it has them), power accessories like awnings and shades, tire condition and age ($4K to $8K to replace all eight), entertainment systems. How is the paint? Any significant damage that you can't live with? Some parks get picky when coaches exceed 10 years of age. Will it pass the "swim suit" contest, or is that going to be important to you?

Other than that, good luck in your searchings! If it will meet the cautions and your needs, it could be a great coach!

K7JV · 09-25-2016, 06:18 AM

The mileage that I quoted above is based on my experience with the Cummins ISL. I don't have any experience with the Detroit-Diesel engines. Most of the fuel consumption we get on a vehicle follows the laws of science in that it takes so much energy input to accelerate so much mass, overcome air resistance and climb hills. The variations come in the efficiencies of the engines, drivetrains and aerodynamics, and how heavy and active the foot is on the individual in the driver's seat. So actual expected mileage is very hard to predict. As I said, we get the mid to upper 6's to the low to mid 7's for the most part. For the life of our coach, we've averaged 6.8 MPG based on the Aladdin information.

Mike Canter · 09-25-2016, 06:44 AM

I have had my Signature with a DD60 for many years and it is the same as a Navigator except for the body design. It sure sounds like you have the chassis battery shutoff switch in the off position. With mine off the motor will still start but a lot of things will not be working. Double check that it is on. About the power, you have to remember these coaches weigh 40,000+ lbs that is 20+ tons so they don't leap ahead but have plenty of power. I get an average of 6.2 to 6.5 mpg at 62 mph while towing a Jeep Wrangler. I get 7 mpg without the Jeep. If you install an Ugly Fix mod on the motor which disables the EGR you may get up to 7 mpg while towing. As far as the wind noise, I sealed around the drivers window and stopped that noise and the door on the passenger side has an inflatable seal and it sounds like that is not inflating which again could be the battery switch. I get zero wind noise in mine while going down the highway. Oil pressure will be at 51 cold at idle and drop to around 32 when hot at idle. 51-57 at 1600 rpm is normal. These coaches are subject to leaking radiators so take a close look under the radiator with a flashlight and on the ground where it has been sitting.

jacwjames · 09-25-2016, 07:00 AM

The HR Navigator is a great coach and has a lot of bells and whistles that can be intimidating especially when you have to fix them. Fortunately there are lots of resources, like IRV2, that you can us to help trouble shoot problems.

If you have an Alladin system it can provide better information then the dash gauges so it's not critical that they work. If the Alladin is showing correct RPM's that tells me the sensor is good. I would check the ground connection on the tach. It could also be a problem with the tach.

The smart wheel is a great option, I couldn't live without mine. Clock springs are a know problem. Here is a source for one that might be same as yours.
https://www.rvchassisparts.com:8443/...is/runApp?id=5

There should be a sticker on the side of the column. Mine is a Douglas Autotech. There is also a possiblity that the wiring harness running down the side of the steering column is bad.

You can down load a manual for the 1900043 steering column which shows how to change the clock spring. Use the number to down load the manual.
Service Parts | Douglas Autotech Corporation

Oil pressure psi looks OK but I'd contact Detroit to know what is recommended.

CatchinRays · 09-25-2016, 09:41 AM

Thanks for all the replies so far. But the information about the oil pressure was actually if I should trust the Alladin monitor because 47 psi at warm idle sure sounded too high, but 57 psi going down the highway seemed reasonable - so, is it really possible that this DD Series 60 could have 47 at idle?
Also, I could mention everything wrong and right with the coach, but it really all comes down to cost - so here is what this coach has that I'm having a hard time finding in other coaches in this price range: obviously the 69k DD Series 60 is a huge positive, residential fridge, king bed, Moto Sat HD, 8 new Toyo tires, Aqua-Hot, 10k Onan w/ 1200 hrs. The bad: rpm gauge erratic in drive (in neutral idling and revving seems to have no problem & Aladin seems to always show the correct reading driving or idling), oil pressure gauge on dash in-op, but seems to show accurate on Alladin). door whistling, driver's window whistling, front Alladin monitor has been removed and replaced with a Pioneer display that doesn't display the Alladin's systems, a/c cover's need replacing - one is broke and the other 2 are wavy and ugly, and anything on the steering column is not working at this time.
Of course I've heard responses of what might be wrong with the steering features, but I'm wondering if this dealership can even sell a coach without an operating horn - seems like a safety issue to me since it can't even pass inspection without it.
But like I said at the beginning, its all about cost - and taking into consideration of what it is, and all the features it has - we're under contract for $120K + TT&L. The out the door cost on this coach when new was over $541k and that includes over $107k in extras - so even with all the issues that is has, is it still worth the $120k? I have a tendency to think so, but that's still a lot of money to spend on something that needs work.
thanks for any help.

Stretch · 09-25-2016, 10:09 AM

$120k is right at the sweet spot. You might beat em down $10k, but I would want the dealer to make it all work correctly. Mike made a good point. Check the radiator by looking under the coach. Look for wet spots on bottom tank. This is a $ 4,000 repair. Coach came with a one piece aluminum radiator that is failure prone. I am concerned with A/C cover failure. Coach might have spent it's life mostly outside. Bad for paint.

Stretch · 09-25-2016, 10:20 AM

K7VJ. Did a wonderful job of summing up the concerns about buying a coach as complex as the Nav. We have the identical coach with same mileage. Bought it a 4,000 miles. So I am pretty up on good and not so good repairs necessary. Don't concern yourself with engine and trans.
They are just fine. Big money repairs can include tires, batteries, Aquahot, radiator, Alladin, A/Cs including dash air. Your tv system. Is expensive if it has not been updated.
My vote is check carefully and BUY it

Mike Canter · 09-25-2016, 10:30 AM

CatchinRays a correction in what you stated. I believe it has a 12.5 KW Onan and not a 10 KW. My DD60 will idle with high oil pressure in the winter or a cold motor but in the summer after running down the road the oil pressure will drop to around 31-32 psi at idle

Randyman1 · 09-25-2016, 11:01 AM

These are AWESOME coaches and everything you described is fixable and there will always be some things needing attention from time to time. Getting possession of one of these well built luxury liners before they are all used up is getting harder to do. Not many coaches being built nowadays with the quality of construction that was put into these, not to mention the amenities. I agree about the door seal not inflating for that wind noise, on mine I had some wind noise at the drivers window in cross winds and it turned out to be a missing weep hole cover. They are plastic and they get brittle and can fall off, or you can knock them off when you wash the coach. Mine were made by Atwood and I found them on Amazon. Check all the windows for missing covers. Use your negotiation skills and make the price right for you to take care of these issues or make them fix the coach to your satisfaction before you accept it at the price you mentioned. I bought my coach from the same company, MHSRV, and they bent over backwards for me in fixing anything that was of concern to me before I left the lot. This isn't the only coach out there, so if they don't want to make it to your liking, you can always walk and find another. JMO. Randy

CatchinRays · 09-25-2016, 11:01 AM

Mike: no, its definitely a 10kw gen, it says 10000 right on the side.
Stretch: that's what worries me - it looks as though its been outside from the looks of the roof, but the side paint actually looks good - but with "melted" a/c covers, leads me to believe its been out all its life. Also, I don't think anything has been updated except the brand new tires (still have the stickers on them). And as far as getting them to come down - they have said its not negotiable...they listed it for $119,997 and did not come down a penny. Even with some of these issues (of which I think they will address at least the steering column issues) I think they are going to stand firm and hope I just go away (haven't been too impressed with the service department at MHSRV so far - when checking the high pitched squealing that I was hearing from the turbo, they just revved the engine to 2500 rpm over and over - so I'm loosing hope they'll be able to fix anything, but I guess I'll see. I go back and forth on going through with the deal and then backing out....but when this much money is involved, I tend to lean towards the side of keeping my money in the bank....oh woe is me.

Mike Canter · 09-25-2016, 12:06 PM

Then I would suggest that is not the original generator. Everyone that I have seen of that class coach has had a 12.5 kw. The big problem would be running all three roof ACs st the same time. You can call Monaco tech with the vin number and they will email you the window sticker. This is another reason for them to drop the price.