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Old 01-22-2015, 03:55 PM   #43
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read this thread,it has the awnser,
Water heater problem
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:00 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ShapeShifter View Post
Actually, that was me, not the OP, saying that. I was basing it on pipedream2's comment that it is behind the AC breaker panel (which would make sense to me, as it minimizes the AC wiring - the 12V wiring, if it's there, would already be going all over the place from the fuse panel, to the remote switch, then to the relay.) However, looking at the diagram, I see that it does specifically say it's behind the 12V panel. Of course, looking at the OP's pics, the breaker panel and 12V panel are right night to each other, so it's probably easy to reach from either opening.

Now, like I said, I wouldn't take the diagram to be 100% accurate: It is not necessarily the same as the OP's coach. (I believe the diagram is from a set of 2006 diagrams, he has a 2003.)


Well, it might matter: it will help answer the question whether there is that extra relay.

With the water heater plugged into that other outlet, does the 120 Volt water heater switch properly control the heater? Or is it "on" all of the time? That's another way to answer the question on whether there is an external relay controlling the power.

If it's an Atwood heater, your 120 Volt heater switch is wired directly to the heater. In this case, even if your heater is plugged into another outlet, you will be able to turn off the AC power and let the water get cold.

If it's a Suburban heater, your 120 Volt heater switch is connected to the relay that might be behind your power panels (whichever one it is.) In this case, that relay switches the power to the water heater outlet. If you plug the heater into a different outlet, you will have no control over it: it will be as if the switch is always on, and the water will not eventually get cold, even if the switch is turned off.

In either case, the heater will work, and the water will get hot. The question is whether you can turn it off and let the water get cold. Does that make sense?

And it's an important question: because with the two different systems, with an Atwood heater, that outlet should always be hot, but with a Suburban heater that outlet is switched.

Hi Shape Shifter, sorry I didn't mean to send you the last note I could not remember who sent it. Well then I guess it does matter what brand of water heater it is. I looked at it last Sunday but did not see a name on it!!
But while camping I plugged the hot water tank into the kitchen outlet to get the tank hot. I assumed that the 120 v switch that I attached on the other post would just activate that Outlet. That outlet as stated earlier is dead with the 120 v switch on or off.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:05 PM   #45
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Hi Shape Shifter, sorry I didn't mean to send you the last note I could not remember who sent it. Well then I guess it does matter what brand of water heater it is. I looked at it last Sunday but did not see a name on it!!
But while camping I plugged the hot water tank into the kitchen outlet to get the tank hot. I assumed that the 120 v switch that I attached on the other post would just activate that Outlet. That outlet as stated earlier is dead with the 120 v switch on or off.
Sounds like I may have the Suburban heater because the outlet would only be hot when the 120v switch is on. while camping I would unplug the water heater from the kitchen to turn it off rather then the 120v switch on the panel.
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:24 PM   #46
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I've been following this thread from day 1. Interesting!!!

On my Windsor I went through replacing the EMS circuit board and load meter last December. From my reading it is not the EMS system, it is functioning as intended.

On my Windsor there is a small electrical box that has 2 relays, one is for the Engine Heater and the 2nd is for the hot water heater. When I was checking my EMS I took the EMS panel off and saw the electrical box and opened it up. I found 1 relay with a terminal that had got hot, I installed a new terminal end and reinstalled. I sent an email to Monaco and in turn they sent me a response as to what the relays were along with a wiring schematic. See attached.

The relay works in conjunction with the 12 volt switch that you flip to activate the water heater.

I initially ordered a relay from Monaco but the called me back and said the relay was obsolete and the new one was triple the cost but they gave me a number to search for and I bought a replacement on Ebay

MAGNECRAFT 9AS1D52-12 Relay,Power,4 Pin,SPST-NO,30A,12VDC

I just received and have not tried to replace yet as my original is still working but I now have a spare and can fix as needed.

From everything I've read it sounds like the relay is bad.
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:59 PM   #47
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I can't help with the wiring problem, but on my 2003 Cayman it came with an Attwood water heater.





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Old 01-23-2015, 08:12 AM   #48
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Question for Doug

Is the receptical GFCI and have you taken the receptacle out of the box to check the bare wire for power ?..........this could be simpler than you think...
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by jacwjames View Post
I've been following this thread from day 1. Interesting!!!

On my Windsor I went through replacing the EMS circuit board and load meter last December. From my reading it is not the EMS system, it is functioning as intended.

On my Windsor there is a small electrical box that has 2 relays, one is for the Engine Heater and the 2nd is for the hot water heater. When I was checking my EMS I took the EMS panel off and saw the electrical box and opened it up. I found 1 relay with a terminal that had got hot, I installed a new terminal end and reinstalled. I sent an email to Monaco and in turn they sent me a response as to what the relays were along with a wiring schematic. See attached.

The relay works in conjunction with the 12 volt switch that you flip to activate the water heater.

I initially ordered a relay from Monaco but the called me back and said the relay was obsolete and the new one was triple the cost but they gave me a number to search for and I bought a replacement on Ebay

MAGNECRAFT 9AS1D52-12 Relay,Power,4 Pin,SPST-NO,30A,12VDC

I just received and have not tried to replace yet as my original is still working but I now have a spare and can fix as needed.

From everything I've read it sounds like the relay is bad.
Thanks you all for your input here, i do appreciate it!!!

Jacwjames, where on the MH did you find the small electrical box with the relays? is it behind the A/C panel as Shapeshifter and PipeDream indicated!

And no the outlet to the water heater under the kitchen sink is not on the GFIC unless there is another GFIC somewhere that I can't find, but I have been through every outlet and this water heater outlet I believe is dedicated to just that circuit only.
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Old 01-23-2015, 08:47 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by pipedream2 View Post
Question for Doug

Is the receptical GFCI and have you taken the receptacle out of the box to check the bare wire for power ?..........this could be simpler than you think...
Hi Pipe, I appreciate your help here!!!
I have taken apart the water heater outlet under the sink and checked for power on the leads and it is dead
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Old 01-23-2015, 09:24 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan5711 View Post
read this thread,it has the awnser,
Water heater problem
Can you be more specific? A link to the thread would be very helpful, or even a summary of the solution.

I tried doing a search for "water heater problem" and got way too many hits, most of which are not directly related to this issue. I even found three different threads with that exact title that are not at all related to this issue: one was having propane problems, the other two were water leaks.
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Old 01-23-2015, 09:42 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dougwk View Post
I looked at it last Sunday but did not see a name on it!!
There's got to be a rating plate somewhere behind the front panel with the specifications.

If all else fails, open the cover and take a picture of the insides. Post it, and I'm sure someone will be able to recognize it.

I've attached pictures of typical Atwood (rectangular, with vent on the left) and Suburban (square, with vent on the right) water heaters, you can see that there are some striking differences. On the Atwood picture, notice the rating plate on the inside right side frame. The Suburban looks to have on on the bottom ledge.

Of course, there are many different models by both manufacturers, but that gives you some idea of the differences.
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by ShapeShifter View Post
Can you be more specific? A link to the thread would be very helpful, or even a summary of the solution.

I tried doing a search for "water heater problem" and got way too many hits, most of which are not directly related to this issue. I even found three different threads with that exact title that are not at all related to this issue: one was having propane problems, the other two were water leaks.
Hi Shape, I did research on this myself and just went to the general motor home forum. the bottom line was that the relay on the EMS circuit board that we already discussed was bad. The cost of the board was $1,000 so the repair man bypassed the relay for him.
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ShapeShifter View Post
There's got to be a rating plate somewhere behind the front panel with the specifications.

If all else fails, open the cover and take a picture of the insides. Post it, and I'm sure someone will be able to recognize it.

I've attached pictures of typical Atwood (rectangular, with vent on the left) and Suburban (square, with vent on the right) water heaters, you can see that there are some striking differences. On the Atwood picture, notice the rating plate on the inside right side frame. The Suburban looks to have on on the bottom ledge.

Of course, there are many different models by both manufacturers, but that gives you some idea of the differences.

Hi Shape, thanks for the photos if I recall mine might be the Attwood. the vent on left and the hole was more rectanglular
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:40 AM   #55
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dougwk

My EMS system quit entirely, nothing worked. I contacted M & M Electronics and worked through trouble shooting to determine I had to replace the circuit board. It cost $420 for the board, 2 wiring harnesses, and the EMS Load Display. I had to buy all of this since my board was obsolete, the board itself was ~$280

I was able to bypass the EMS until I got it fixed. If you bypass the water heater relay on the EMS and it still doesn't work that pretty rules out the EMS.

The small electrical box was mounted behind the entire electrical pane that has the 50 amp breaker and the other breakers plus the EMS board. I had to remove the screws that held the whole panel in the cut out to be able to pull it out and lift it enough to see the small electrical box. My curiosity resulted in me opening the panel to see what was there and then noticing the hot terminal. My water heater still worked.

I would contact Monaco and ask them where your relay is located, that's how I knew what this was and how I got the wiring schematic.
(800) 450-6336
mcctech@monacocoach.com

I sent them an email and they responded quickly with the info and diagram. You need to provide them your VIN number and they can get you the info.

You can see if the 12 volt coil to 120vac relay is the issue by bypassing it.

I assume there is a good reason why they used a 12 volt relay to turn off and on the water heater but I don't know what it is. A simple 120vac switch could have done the same thing.
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:53 AM   #56
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dougwk

My EMS system quit entirely, nothing worked. I contacted M & M Electronics and worked through trouble shooting to determine I had to replace the circuit board. It cost $420 for the board, 2 wiring harnesses, and the EMS Load Display.

I was able to bypass the EMS until I got it fixed. If you bypass the water heater relay on the EMS and it still doesn't work that pretty rules out the EMS.

The small electrical box was mounted behind the entire electrical pane that has the 50 amp breaker and the other breakers plus the EMS board. I had to remove the screws that held the whole panel in the cut out to be able to pull it out and lift it enough to see the small electrical box. My curiosity resulted in me opening the panel to see what was there and then noticing the hot terminal. My water heater still worked.

I would contact Monaco and ask them where your relay is located, that's how I knew what this was and how I got the wiring schematic.
(800) 450-6336
mcctech@monacocoach.com

I sent them an email and they responded quickly with the info and diagram. You need to provide them your VIN number and they can get you the info.

You can see if the 12 volt coil to 120vac relay is the issue by bypassing it.

I assume there is a good reason why they used a 12 volt relay to turn off and on the water heater but I don't know what it is. A simple 120vac switch could have done the same thing.

Very helpful Jim!!!
I will remove the panel this weekend, look to see what I can take readings and potentially jump the relay if I can find it, take some more photos and get the name of the water heater. I really appreciate your contact to Monaco and all your advice!!!
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