Steering Box Play- Sheppard M100 SHIM or Swap for a TRW ?

[deSanford]

Looks like if you don't want any steering wheel play (like an off road vehicle the Sheppard has to go) do the swap. You won't regret doing it. Sanford

[Alan Wilson]

Originally Posted by onechaddude

Sanford yes I have according to the monaco spec sheet the PPN31 sheppard. Craig said it was the same as many that have swapped boxes. Anyone know where the model number is located on the box so I can verify that?

Chad

Chad, mine was on a machined part of the housing near the pitman arm if I remember right.



Alan Wilson

2001 HR Scepter 38 PBD

[CrazyKnight]

Originally Posted by onechaddude

Finally able to get a couple pics of the pitman arm and steering box. My steering box is spaced off of the frame a good ways. Not sure if anyone else's is like that or not. Anyone think this would be a problem? Thanks

Chad

The pictures look just like the Sheppard we swapped on Maddog7's Cheetah last week. No issues what so ever and the swap took 3 hours. The hardest part was getting the 8" long 7/8" bolts. Fastenal only carried 1 at each location. Weller should have the TRW box, the big thing is Weller has run out of used pitman arms for this application so the new pitman arms are a little bit $$$ compared to the used ones.

When I did the swap on Maddog7's coach the pitman arm to drag link connection came within 3/16" of OEM, for the better clearance wise, and fit perfect. Mike (Maddog) leaves tomorrow for a long trip and will provide a test drive report when he gets a chance.

The model number on the Sheppard is on the machined surface next to the pitman arm on the steering gear itself, like Alan said.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[onechaddude]

Originally Posted by CrazyKnight

The pictures look just like the Sheppard we swapped on Maddog7's Cheetah last week. No issues what so ever and the swap took 3 hours. The hardest part was getting the 8" long 7/8" bolts. Fastenal only carried 1 at each location. Weller should have the TRW box, the big thing is Weller has run out of used pitman arms for this application so the new pitman arms are a little bit $$$ compared to the used ones.

When I did the swap on Maddog7's coach the pitman arm to drag link connection came within 3/16" of OEM, for the better clearance wise, and fit perfect. Mike (Maddog) leaves tomorrow for a long trip and will provide a test drive report when he gets a chance.

The model number on the Sheppard is on the machined surface next to the pitman arm on the steering gear itself, like Alan said.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Thanks craig. That's good to hear. I guess I need to call Weller to find out the specifics and get the ball rolling. I am really getting excited about getting this done. Look forward to hearing about maddog7 comments on the swap. Hope you are having a great trip to Q.

Chad

[CrazyKnight]

Originally Posted by onechaddude

Thanks craig. That's good to hear. I guess I need to call Weller to find out the specifics and get the ball rolling. I am really getting excited about getting this done. Look forward to hearing about maddog7 comments on the swap. Hope you are having a great trip to Q.

Chad

Chad,

The trip to Q is going pretty well except for this CRAZY COLD weather, my coach has never seen 13 degrees. I NEVER thought I would be running a spare wet bay heater, then I had to do the normal thermal fuse fix on my 12V wet bay heater.

I would use Gearhead's and rmcb's instructions as a guide, they both did a GREAT job of laying out the process after I tried to explain it way back in the thread.

I am not sure how long your TRW steering gear bolts will be, usually 1 inch longer than the stock bolt, as the TRW mounting tabs are thicker than the Sheppard's.

Van and I were running in 25 to 30 MPH gusting winds quartering from the rear, which pushes that heavy engine around, yesterday in the middle of Texas and in COMPLETE control of the coaches. Do they still move a little, yes, but you maintain your lane and the coach does what YOU tell it to do.

Get all of your measurements before you begin the swap, there are examples all over this thread, then you can see your post swap results.
Good luck getting the ball rolling and PLEASE feel free to ask ANYTHING, there are GREAT group of guys on this thread that have swapped and are glad to help.
PM me if you have any questions at ALL.

SWAP ON !!!! (if you want to)

[onechaddude]

Originally Posted by CrazyKnight

Chad,

The trip to Q is going pretty well except for this CRAZY COLD weather, my coach has never seen 13 degrees. I NEVER thought I would be running a spare wet bay heater, then I had to do the normal thermal fuse fix on my 12V wet bay heater.

I would use Gearhead's and rmcb's instructions as a guide, they both did a GREAT job of laying out the process after I tried to explain it way back in the thread.

I am not sure how long your TRW steering gear bolts will be, usually 1 inch longer than the stock bolt, as the TRW mounting tabs are thicker than the Sheppard's.

Van and I were running in 25 to 30 MPH gusting winds quartering from the rear, which pushes that heavy engine around, yesterday in the middle of Texas and in COMPLETE control of the coaches. Do they still move a little, yes, but you maintain your lane and the coach does what YOU tell it to do.

Get all of your measurements before you begin the swap, there are examples all over this thread, then you can see your post swap results.
Good luck getting the ball rolling and PLEASE feel free to ask ANYTHING, there are GREAT group of guys on this thread that have swapped and are glad to help.
PM me if you have any questions at ALL.

SWAP ON !!!! (if you want to)

I'm glad yours and vans trip is going well. Yes the cold is a killer here as well. I got use to the 70s and 80s of Florida for a week and a half to come home to 8 Thursday morn. 32 is the high here today. I know you folks up north would kill for 32 but that's cold for me here in nc for a high temp.

First question in preliminary stages. If the new trw box is 1 inch longer ( if I've read correctly?) can I cut 1 inch off the spacers and that would keep the box at basically the same position since mine is spaced over anyways. If I did that will the same pitman arm work? This may be not even feasible just something that popped in my head when I first looked. Thanks again to all and I look forward to "play" free driving.

Chad

[rmcb]

Chad,
The sheppard pitman arm will not fit on a TRW steering gear. It has a tapered bore where the TRW has a straight bore with a pinch bolt. Sector shaft dia is also different.
Good luck with your swap.
Roy

[CaymanPilot]

Chad,
See my post #181 on page 13 of this thread for photos of my Sheppard box, offsets and where to find the model #. There is probably a lot of similarity between your coach and mine. Mine is also on the Roadmaster RR4R chassis and has offsets. I did my swap by myself and it took me in total about 5 hours over 4 days. I used a floor jack to R&R the steering gears - lifted it up upside down on the jack so that the bottom bolt could be slid through the frame and the nut installed. Then remove the jack, swing TRW up and install remaining 2 bolts/nuts. I did not modify my standoffs and the TRW TAS65 025M (as recommended by Brent) fit perfectly.
The TRW made a big improvement in my steering. Without the HHR behind it, it drove like a dream - even in crosswinds with passing semi's. I drove it about 50 miles after the swap and was happy. Fast forward to Dec 27th, 2014 - hooked up the HHR and headed for Florida. The first day was blustery to say the least with about 20 - 25 mph crosswinds. Had to seesaw again to keep her in the lane but not as bad as before the swap. With calm winds and the HHR behind, it drives nice. My next step is to investigate cross braces (if they are available for an RR4R chassis) and/or watts link and determine whether they will be required on both the front or rear suspension to achieve the 2 finger handling spoken about on this thread. We are staying in FL state park campgrounds until April so internet connections will be sparse. I'll try to check periodically to see if you have any questions I can help you with. Would also be happy to talk to you on the phone, so send me a PM and we can arrange that if you want.

[JDL]

Originally Posted by CaymanPilot

Chad,
. Fast forward to Dec 27th, 2014 - hooked up the HHR and headed for Florida. The first day was blustery to say the least with about 20 - 25 mph crosswinds. Had to seesaw again to keep her in the lane but not as bad as before the swap. With calm winds and the HHR behind, it drives nice. My next step is to investigate cross braces (if they are available for an RR4R chassis) and/or watts link and determine whether they will be required on both the front or rear suspension to achieve the 2 finger handling spoken about on this thread. We are staying in FL state park campgrounds until April so internet connections will be sparse. I'll try to check periodically to see if you have any questions I can help you with. Would also be happy to talk to you on the phone, so send me a PM and we can arrange that if you want.

Steve,
I believe your coach is a candidate for the antisway bars. With crosswinds, the antisway works by leveraging opposing forces of the chassis movement vs. axles. In the wind, as the chassis/box attempts to move with the wind, it moves away from one side of the axle as it is trying to move towards the opposing side. Antisway bars work by adding resistance to this type of movement and not add resistance to road changes i.e. potholes, rises, that affect one side of the axle at a time.

I dont believe you have the H frame and 4 link/panhard setup, which is the problem solved with the cross bars and/or Watts link. That movement is in line with the chassis as opposed to perpindicular to the chassis.

Similar problems, but not exactly the same.

Darin

[CrazyKnight]

Originally Posted by onechaddude

I'm glad yours and vans trip is going well. Yes the cold is a killer here as well. I got use to the 70s and 80s of Florida for a week and a half to come home to 8 Thursday morn. 32 is the high here today. I know you folks up north would kill for 32 but that's cold for me here in nc for a high temp.

First question in preliminary stages. If the new trw box is 1 inch longer ( if I've read correctly?) can I cut 1 inch off the spacers and that would keep the box at basically the same position since mine is spaced over anyways. If I did that will the same pitman arm work? This may be not even feasible just something that popped in my head when I first looked. Thanks again to all and I look forward to "play" free driving.

Chad

Chad,

The box is not 1 inch larger, the mounting pads are just thicker towards the outboard side. If you mount the TRW and then use the correct pitman arm, which can only be used on the TRW, as the two brands are not interchangeable because of different styles of mounting it to the steering gear your pitman arm to draglink position will almost be in the OEM position. There is no need to cut the spacers, just buy 1 inch longer bolts for $30 and you are fine.

Fixing the steering box FIRST, for any coach it will result in not chasing the rear with the front due to steering box play. Get that fixed then you let people talk you into a sway bars, I am going to do them someday soon.
The sway bars are a good modification but you need to eliminate the steering gear play 4 bag or 8 bag chassis.

Why is the NEW HR and Monaco putting TRW's back in their coaches, because they know that WE know there is an "issue" with the Sheppard boxes....RIGHT from the HR rep at the Hershey show when he caught me under his "NEW" HR.
Even with a new Freightliner chassis you still can NOT have loose steering.

PERIOD !!!!!

The RR4R Cheetah we just did had sway bars and it handled GREAT on the test drive and Maddog7 will chime in soon with a report. Mike, Maddog7, LOVED the results of the TRW swap but his sway bars do make a difference. YES i was jealous of his sway bars :-)

[deSanford]

Craig are you saying that the "new" Monacos and HR coaches on Freightliner chassis used to use Sheppard's? Sanford

[onechaddude]

Thanks guys. My brain is always trying to simplify things. I'll stop with the bothering you with questions until I read the write-ups about the swap. I've been busy with work and swapping to aluminum wheels from the darned simulators and also swapping out the tv in front for a HD flat screen. I also just sold my brake buddy and been reading about toad brake systems and then searching for the best price and ordering. Yes I've been busy.

I am planning to read up Sunday after church and figuring this thing out.

Craig the rr4r Cheetah you just helped with, we're the sway bars added to it or were they stock? I ask because I remember looking under mine and seemed like it had some sort of track bar or something that looked to me like it would control axle side play. I also searched a while back and could not find anyone that made sway bars for the rr4r. Thanks again all for the help and offers to talk to help answer my questions. I'm sure I'll need it.

Chad

[onechaddude]

Originally Posted by CaymanPilot

Chad,
See my post #181 on page 13 of this thread for photos of my Sheppard box, offsets and where to find the model #. There is probably a lot of similarity between your coach and mine. Mine is also on the Roadmaster RR4R chassis and has offsets. I did my swap by myself and it took me in total about 5 hours over 4 days. I used a floor jack to R&R the steering gears - lifted it up upside down on the jack so that the bottom bolt could be slid through the frame and the nut installed. Then remove the jack, swing TRW up and install remaining 2 bolts/nuts. I did not modify my standoffs and the TRW TAS65 025M (as recommended by Brent) fit perfectly.
The TRW made a big improvement in my steering. Without the HHR behind it, it drove like a dream - even in crosswinds with passing semi's. I drove it about 50 miles after the swap and was happy. Fast forward to Dec 27th, 2014 - hooked up the HHR and headed for Florida. The first day was blustery to say the least with about 20 - 25 mph crosswinds. Had to seesaw again to keep her in the lane but not as bad as before the swap. With calm winds and the HHR behind, it drives nice. My next step is to investigate cross braces (if they are available for an RR4R chassis) and/or watts link and determine whether they will be required on both the front or rear suspension to achieve the 2 finger handling spoken about on this thread. We are staying in FL state park campgrounds until April so internet connections will be sparse. I'll try to check periodically to see if you have any questions I can help you with. Would also be happy to talk to you on the phone, so send me a PM and we can arrange that if you want.

Caymanpilot. I just looked at your pics and yes the standoffs and all looks identical to mine. I am sure they are very similar with the steering box. I can relate to what you are saying about towing. I pull a jeep grand Cherokee and have noticed a slight amount of more "wander" when I am towing than not.

Thanks for the offer to talk if I need help. That's very considerate of you. Hopefully it will work out without any problems. I'm pretty good with my hands and tools so hopefully it will go smooth and I'll not have to bother you. I hope your florida trip is warm and beautiful. We just got home last weekend from a week and a half tampa and orlando trip and the weather was awesome.

Chad

[CaymanPilot]

Originally Posted by CrazyKnight

Chad,

The box is not 1 inch larger, the mounting pads are just thicker towards the outboard side. If you mount the TRW and then use the correct pitman arm, which can only be used on the TRW, as the two brands are not interchangeable because of different styles of mounting it to the steering gear your pitman arm to draglink position will almost be in the OEM position. There is no need to cut the spacers, just buy 1 inch longer bolts for $30 and you are fine.

Fixing the steering box FIRST, for any coach it will result in not chasing the rear with the front due to steering box play. Get that fixed then you let people talk you into a sway bars, I am going to do them someday soon.
The sway bars are a good modification but you need to eliminate the steering gear play 4 bag or 8 bag chassis.

Why is the NEW HR and Monaco putting TRW's back in their coaches, because they know that WE know there is an "issue" with the Sheppard boxes....RIGHT from the HR rep at the Hershey show when he caught me under his "NEW" HR.
Even with a new Freightliner chassis you still can NOT have loose steering.

PERIOD !!!!!

The RR4R Cheetah we just did had sway bars and it handled GREAT on the test drive and Maddog7 will chime in soon with a report. Mike, Maddog7, LOVED the results of the TRW swap but his sway bars do make a difference. YES i was jealous of his sway bars :-)

Craig,
These sway bars you are talking about - are they something other than the cross bars or the watts link? Please tell me more. If the Cheetah was on an RR4R then this is probably what I should do next? If there is already info on the sway bars here, please point me in that direction (ie. in the sway bar/cross bars/watts link thread) and I will do my due diligence to read up on the info so you don't have to duplicate it here.

Chad,
As of Tuesday, we will be sitting back and relaxing in Manatee State Park Campground so will have plenty of time to chat. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have questions or just want to talk about your swap. I'd love to share my experience with you. Right now we are visiting friends in The Villages and are away from the coach most of the day. Here are the bolts I bought to mount the TRW. Note that my pitman arm did not come with a bolt for the steering box end.
Mounting bolts - Fastenal 7/8-9x7 grade 8 yellow zinc (measure carefully - yours may work with 7/8-9x6)
Pitman arm bolt – Fastenal 3/4-16x4 grade 8 yellow zinc
Used the original nuts for the mounting bolts and bought matching self tightening nut for pitman arm bolt.
I borrowed a 4 ft long 500 ft lb torque wrench from a friend. It was all I could do to torque the mounting bolts to 400 ft lbs with this equipment in my driveway. Although my bolt torque guide calls for 450 ft lbs for this bolt, I don't think it is going anywhere at 400 ft lbs.