Steering Box Play- Sheppard M100 SHIM or Swap for a TRW ?

[Alan Wilson]

Originally Posted by mscress

Good Day,

We have a 2008 38 foot Cayman XL, which we purchased used in August 2013. Have done all the usual stuff new Trailing Arms, REK from Source, Front End and Chassis Alignment and now it is time to finally address the "steering"?

We are in Huntington Beach CA and looking for someone local, that would be able to perform the TRW SWAP on the Cayman?

Appreciate any input

I used a local truck and tire repair shop with the Goodyear brand and they did it in short order. They did pretty much minor work like alignments, bearings and stuff like that. This is pretty straightforward so I don't think you need a shop with major overhaul capabilities as the hourly rate would get a little high I would imagine.


Thanks,

Alan

2001 HR Scepter 38PBD 330 Cummins

[deSanford]

mscress check your private e-mail. Sanford

[CrazyKnight]

Well gang it seems try as Brent might we were unable to secure a bolt on replacement for a Sheppard M110 in a 2012 Tag Dynasty.

Brent and I shared information back and forth in various emails and phone conversations. It was concluded that yes we could modify the mounting plate and go through various mounting options, like Van and discussed when the Shepard to TRW saga started, but Brent feels it would take a REALLY good shop to do the work or someone who is VERY mechanically inclined. There would be some MAJOR liability issues and that would steer most shops, people, away from such a job.

Weller will probably undertake the job of making a "tight" Sheppard for the owner. I know this would be the last resort but in THIS coach owners case it may be his only choice. We will have to wait for the results if the owner chooses to go that route. I know from talking to him that he has over 1 inch of non motion.

As I have stated before some of the very early Sheppard models installed on Monaco brand coaches seemed a bit tighter than the later, say after 2003, versions that they used. The newer versions seem to have more non motion than the older versions I have had my hands on.

I will keep you posted on the results if the owner decides to Shim a Shepard.

SWAP ON !!! (if you want to)

[Alan Wilson]

I changed my Sheppard over to a TRW and that helped tremendously but I still have some wandering in my coach. I thought it was just something I needed to get accustomed to. I have driven several miles and it has not gotten any better. I was under my coach with someone moving the steering wheel I can see that all joints are tight. No slack anywhere! So I looked back at my last alignment sheet and saw the toe in had been changed from 1/4" to 1/32" and I am wondering if that is running too straight and picking up road imperfections and needs a little more toe in added. I don't want to go back and pay another $175 just to change the toe in so how difficult is it to add a small amount of toe in? Can someone tell me the procedure? I think I know but looking for some verification. Thanks!


Alan Wilson

2001 HR Scepter 38 PBD

[YC1]

Alan, you are reading my mind. So I will add something that I may have done wrong in my installation for everyone to ponder. Mine seems to pull to the right a bit and I'm thinking my steering box is not running centered.

When I installed mine I felt the wheels were straight. The steering rod did not match up to the pitman arm so instead of moving the wheels or turning the steering wheel to match I loostened the end and gave it several turns.

I believe this is causing the steering box to be running a bit off center now if that makes any sense. In any case, I am going to disconnect it and return it back to its original position and then turn the steering wheel until they match up.

With that said I too have been thinking about adding a bit of toe in. Removing the clamps on each end of the long connector rod was not easy due to the type of nuts used. Once they were free the rod would not turn easily with the tools I had in hand so I just sprayed them with penetrating oil and put the clamps back on. I will add more oil to the threads and give it a go again in the near future.

With the slight pull to the right my safe-t-plus can compensate with the trim I built but again, I think the slight off center may just add a bit of looseness to the system.

Overall the RV stays right in the path I point it and those pesky concrete barriers do not produce white knuckles. Those darn narrow toll booths are a pain. I try to use the wide load lanes if possible.

[Alan Wilson]

Originally Posted by YC1

Alan, you are reading my mind. So I will add something that I may have done wrong in my installation for everyone to ponder. Mine seems to pull to the right a bit and I'm thinking my steering box is not running centered.

When I installed mine I felt the wheels were straight. The steering rod did not match up to the pitman arm so instead of moving the wheels or turning the steering wheel to match I loostened the end and gave it several turns.

I believe this is causing the steering box to be running a bit off center now if that makes any sense. In any case, I am going to disconnect it and return it back to its original position and then turn the steering wheel until they match up.

With that said I too have been thinking about adding a bit of toe in. Removing the clamps on each end of the long connector rod was not easy due to the type of nuts used. Once they were free the rod would not turn easily with the tools I had in hand so I just sprayed them with penetrating oil and put the clamps back on. I will add more oil to the threads and give it a go again in the near future.

With the slight pull to the right my safe-t-plus can compensate with the trim I built but again, I think the slight off center may just add a bit of looseness to the system.

Overall the RV stays right in the path I point it and those pesky concrete barriers do not produce white knuckles. Those darn narrow toll booths are a pain. I try to use the wide load lanes if possible.

Mine doesn't pull one way or the other at all. It just tends to wander around slightly where I need to keep making corrections. If I have a slight wind on either side it does great and runs down the road true but just driving straight down the road with no wind it tends to move right or left where I need to constantly make a little correction. For all I know the 1/32" toe in could now be at zero. I plan to have my SIL help do some measuring before and after to see the change. Don't get me wrong, this set up is much better than before. I just think it doesn't have enough toe in to keep each tire where it should be. I know what you are saying about recentering but I ended up having mine installed by a truck shop and I made certain they knew not to change anything on the steering and to keep center at center. I guess I can't guarantee that happened and if a little toe in won't fix it then its back to the alignment shop. I assume I only have to break the nuts loose to give the bar a turn to get an 1/8" additional toe in, assuming 1/32 for each rotation of the rod correct?

[Vanwill]

Originally Posted by Alan Wilson

Mine doesn't pull one way or the other at all. It just tends to wander around slightly where I need to keep making corrections. If I have a slight wind on either side it does great and runs down the road true but just driving straight down the road with no wind it tends to move right or left where I need to constantly make a little correction. For all I know the 1/32" toe in could now be at zero. I plan to have my SIL help do some measuring before and after to see the change. Don't get me wrong, this set up is much better than before. I just think it doesn't have enough toe in to keep each tire where it should be. I know what you are saying about recentering but I ended up having mine installed by a truck shop and I made certain they knew not to change anything on the steering and to keep center at center. I guess I can't guarantee that happened and if a little toe in won't fix it then its back to the alignment shop. I assume I only have to break the nuts loose to give the bar a turn to get an 1/8" additional toe in, assuming 1/32 for each rotation of the rod correct?

Alan, I would not hold out a great deal of hope for curing the wandering with any kind of alignment. HOWEVER, that being said, insufficient toe-in (or worse yet, toe-OUT) has been known to contribute to wandering. And even when you are paying $200+ for an alignment, that is frequently ALL that is changed. Here is something that will help you check your toe-in:

Raise each front wheel so that it can be rotated. Use a helper to rotate the tire and a piece of soapstone or other marker to mark a circumferential line around the approximate center of each tire. You can then measure with a common measuring tape the distance between the lines at the front and rear of the tires. Some folks advise letting the wheels back down on the ground and running the coach backward and forward a few feet for everything to "settle in". Adjust the relay rod to get the measurement you like. Unless you are in the "1%" and put so many miles on your coach that you wear out tires before they age out, you need not worry about having too much toe-in. I've known knowledgeable owners who have run as much as 1/4" toe-in.

As far as getting the tie rod ends loose on the relay rod, that can be difficult. Soaking with your favorite penetrating concoction several days prior to the job sometimes works. My favorite is a mixture of 50/50 acetone and automatic trans fluid. Also, if you have access to an air hammer, even a light-duty one, with a blunt tip, you can apply it all around the outside of the relay rod at the threaded portion. That helps break the hold of the rust. Good luck!

Should increasing the toe-in fail to cure your problem, consider a front Watts link setup. These are proving to be near-miraculous in many applications. Rear X-braces on your trailing arms may also help, and will DEFINITELY improve your "panic lane change" performance. Craig and I have yet to find a coach whose wandering we could not cure. Most owners are ecstatic about the improvement.

[Alan Wilson]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

Alan, I would not hold out a great deal of hope for curing the wandering with any kind of alignment. HOWEVER, that being said, insufficient toe-in (or worse yet, toe-OUT) has been known to contribute to wandering. And even when you are paying $200+ for an alignment, that is frequently ALL that is changed. Here is something that will help you check your toe-in:

Raise each front wheel so that it can be rotated. Use a helper to rotate the tire and a piece of soapstone or other marker to mark a circumferential line around the approximate center of each tire. You can then measure with a common measuring tape the distance between the lines at the front and rear of the tires. Some folks advise letting the wheels back down on the ground and running the coach backward and forward a few feet for everything to "settle in". Adjust the relay rod to get the measurement you like. Unless you are in the "1%" and put so many miles on your coach that you wear out tires before they age out, you need not worry about having too much toe-in. I've known knowledgeable owners who have run as much as 1/4" toe-in.

As far as getting the tie rod ends loose on the relay rod, that can be difficult. Soaking with your favorite penetrating concoction several days prior to the job sometimes works. My favorite is a mixture of 50/50 acetone and automatic trans fluid. Also, if you have access to an air hammer, even a light-duty one, with a blunt tip, you can apply it all around the outside of the relay rod at the threaded portion. That helps break the hold of the rust. Good luck!

Should increasing the toe-in fail to cure your problem, consider a front Watts link setup. These are proving to be near-miraculous in many applications. Rear X-braces on your trailing arms may also help, and will DEFINITELY improve your "panic lane change" performance. Craig and I have yet to find a coach whose wandering we could not cure. Most owners are ecstatic about the improvement.

Actually my concern was toe out or possibly no toe at all. I just had a four wheel alignment last year so hopefully those nuts shouldn't be that hard to break loose. At 1/32 of an inch toe in I think it would not take too much for either tire to grab a ridge or high spot or even a low spot in the highway and run with it. I am hoping that ssome added toe in would help. If not I may have to try the watts link. As it is it's not terrible at all especially compared to before the swap.


Thanks,

Alan

2001 HR Scepter 38PBD 330 Cummins

[deSanford]

Van's X bars and Mike's Watts Links front and rear will do wonders plus the TRW swap. Sanford

[nodine]

Since installing the TRW box we have had a noise in the steering when making large steering inputs like turning in a parking lot or the sharp left out of our driveway. You can feel it in the steering and it sounds like metal rubbing together. I thought maybe it was the Blue Ox TruCenter so I removed the TruCenter and drove the coach. It is not the TruCenter and the only thing under the coach I messed with besides the steering sector was the drag link end that connects to the Pitman arm. Now I am thinking it may have been damaged and is causing the noise. I have been under there with my grease gun and greased everything including the King pins.

I guess at this point the only thing left to do is replace the drag link end at the Pitman arm. So the help I need is with a part number or soucre for that (not sure what to call it ) drag link end. When I was young we would call it a tie rod end but that may not be the correct name.

Bob

[Alan Wilson]

Originally Posted by nodine

Since installing the TRW box we have had a noise in the steering when making large steering inputs like turning in a parking lot or the sharp left out of our driveway. You can feel it in the steering and it sounds like metal rubbing together. I thought maybe it was the Blue Ox TruCenter so I removed the TruCenter and drove the coach. It is not the TruCenter and the only thing under the coach I messed with besides the steering sector was the drag link end that connects to the Pitman arm. Now I am thinking it may have been damaged and is causing the noise. I have been under there with my grease gun and greased everything including the King pins.

I guess at this point the only thing left to do is replace the drag link end at the Pitman arm. So the help I need is with a part number or soucre for that (not sure what to call it ) drag link end. When I was young we would call it a tie rod end but that may not be the correct name.

Bob

Nodine, just curious if you are seeing any rub marks or scrap marks on the drag link or any other part of the moving steering parts? I am by no means an expert on this but it does make me curious. Now I will step back and let experts help you.


Alan Wilson

2001 HR Scepter 38 PBD

[b-Bota]

Originally Posted by nodine

Since installing the TRW box we have had a noise in the steering when making large steering inputs like turning in a parking lot or the sharp left out of our driveway. You can feel it in the steering and it sounds like metal rubbing together. I thought maybe it was the Blue Ox TruCenter so I removed the TruCenter and drove the coach. It is not the TruCenter and the only thing under the coach I messed with besides the steering sector was the drag link end that connects to the Pitman arm. Now I am thinking it may have been damaged and is causing the noise. I have been under there with my grease gun and greased everything including the King pins.

I guess at this point the only thing left to do is replace the drag link end at the Pitman arm. So the help I need is with a part number or soucre for that (not sure what to call it ) drag link end. When I was young we would call it a tie rod end but that may not be the correct name.

Bob

Bob, after my swap I had a very pronounced noise coming from my TRW box. This occurred when the wheels were coming back from extreme turns at low speeds. After several conversations with Weller's technical support and bleeding the steering gear again, we came to the conclusion that this noise does not indicate a mechanical problem or will it lead to a safety issue. I don't know if this is what you are hearing. You might want to do a little more trouble shooting before buying parts.
Good Luck
Harry


2005 HR Ambassador 36' ISC 330,
2014 Honda CRV

[mhughes]

My TRW has a groaning noise when turning right (not left).

Bled the system several times thinking there was air.

In talks with Brent I was informed that the hydraulic noise is somewhat common and not a safety issue.

As I think back, my Journey had a similar noise turning both directions.

[nodine]

Originally Posted by mhughes

My TRW has a groaning noise when turning right (not left).

Bled the system several times thinking there was air.

In talks with Brent I was informed that the hydraulic noise is somewhat common and not a safety issue.

As I think back, my Journey had a similar noise turning both directions.

Thanks Mike and Harry,

It makes me feel better to know that others have also experienced the noise. I do remember hearing the same kind of noise way back when driving dump trucks. It could just be the nature of no play to absorb vibration.

Bob