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Old 12-24-2013, 10:44 AM   #1
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Trailer brake controller connection on Beaver

Another question, I need to tow a 24' trailer with my 03 Patriot. The connector on the trailer is a 7 pin, the one on the coach is a 6 pin. Not really a problem since there are connector/converters that will work, my question is if the coach might be wired for a electrical brake controller?

Im hoping that it is, if not it looks like I will have to run wiring from the front dash to the rear trailer connection. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 12-24-2013, 10:50 AM   #2
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Depends on manufacture and model.

Call your coach manufacture to find out and if so, where is it located.

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Old 12-24-2013, 02:52 PM   #3
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Sofar-Sogood......To start, I would change out your 6 pin to a 7 pin because that has become the industry standard on the coaches and may save you some issues later. It will also add the extra lead you'll probably need to add to make the brakes work. You're 6 pin probably doesn't have the power lead included that can be used for an electric jack, charging a battery on a trailer or running interior trailer lights.

In your year model, Monaco more than likely did not include electric brake wiring. They didn't do this until about 06 and newer.

Here's a big issue.....DP's don't have brake switches like cars do. That's the switch attached to the brake pedal that turns on the brake lights when you step on the brake pedal. This switch/wires are used in the installation of electric brakes to trigger the brakes when you step on the brake pedal. Finding a trigger wire on a DP can be very complicated/difficult.

A lot of people are now buying the new wireless brake systems so you don't have to mess with the brake switch issue. It should also save you running a wire the length of the coach. The few extra dollars for the wireless model may be well worth the cost.

I haven't installed a wireless unit yet, but I sure have messed around with a wired one on a DP and it's not fun.
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Old 12-24-2013, 04:12 PM   #4
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Don,

I am not so sure that the wireless units are the way to go. It was noted recently on a lengthy thread here that the Prodigy Wireless unit has a master control that simply plugs into a 12 VDC socket at the dash. The receiver plugs into the 7-Way receptacle at the rear of the coach. Then the trailer 7-Way plugs into the rear of the receiver. So far so good, Eh!

Now when you step on the service brakes, the brakes lights come on and it triggers the receiver to activate the electric trailer brakes. All is well, EXCEPT for the fact that when your Exhaust or Engine Brake activates, it also lights up the brake lights which will also activate the electric brakes on the trailer.

Having that happen just a few times on long descending grades and I'll guarantee you that your trailer brakes will eventually be completely smoked.

The only way to eliminate that from happening is to find the circuit that comes from your Exhaust or Engine brake and eliminate the activation of the brake lights when using them.

Not really a wise thing to do but there is no other way except for installing a properly wired Prodigy Electric Brake Controller.

If the OP would like some advice as to how to accomplish that, I could sure help him. I had wired my 2002 Windsor for towing my Rolling Garage back in 2009 and it works just like it was designed to.

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Old 12-25-2013, 08:08 PM   #5
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I am by no means an expert in this area but my understanding is that the wireless or wired prodigy brake controller work in the same way. That is to say that they are both controlled by a inertia sensor. The trailer brakes do not receive the signal from the brake lights, but instead power is fed to the brakes via the blue wire that receives its signal from the brake controller. That is what allows it to be a proportional braking set-up. Now we could discuss whether the exhaust brake would affect inertia enough to trigger the trailer brakes but I believe that would be the same via wired or wireless. Just my $.02
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Old 12-26-2013, 08:01 AM   #6
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I am by no means an expert in this area but my understanding is that the wireless or wired prodigy brake controller work in the same way. That is to say that they are both controlled by a inertia sensor. The trailer brakes do not receive the signal from the brake lights, but instead power is fed to the brakes via the blue wire that receives its signal from the brake controller. That is what allows it to be a proportional braking set-up. Now we could discuss whether the exhaust brake would affect inertia enough to trigger the trailer brakes but I believe that would be the same via wired or wireless. Just my $.02
You are mostly correct, and it is true that the trailer brakes do not (directly) receive power from the tow vehicle brake lights. The controller does indeed use an inertia sensor to modulate the battery power to the trailer brakes. But both the wired and wireless Prodigy models do indeed have a trigger signal that is activated by the tow vehicle brake pedal. The reason for this is so that the trailer brakes only activate while the tow vehicle is actively braking - you don't want the trailer brakes to come on every time the controller senses some deceleration. If this weren't the case, the trailer brakes would activate every time you downshift, especially if you've downshifted to maintain speed on a long descent. Without this trigger signal, when you downshift to maintain speed on a long descent, the controller's inertia sensor will sense the deceleration and apply the trailer brakes for the whole descent. That could easily burn them up.

While the tow vehicle's brake signal does not directly control the trailer brakes, it does act as an "enable" signal for the trailer brake controller. If there is no brake signal, the trailer brake controller sends no signal to the trailer's brakes, even if it senses deceleration. Only if the trigger signal is active will the controller's inertia sensor modulate the power to the trailer's brakes.

The issue with the wireless controller is that the tow vehicle brake signal is inferred directly from the tail light signals in the trailer connector. If those tail lights are active with the exhaust brake, they will activate the trailer brakes whenever the exhaust brake is active, and that would be a bad thing on a long hill.

The wired version has the ability to be wired up so that it is triggered only by the service brakes, even if the exhaust brake turns on the brake lights. But that's only if you can find the proper signal wire in the tow vehicle. It may require some custom wiring, and the actual connections are likely to vary widely between coach models.

There are trailer brake controllers out there that do not have an electrical trigger signal from the tow vehicle's brake system. These controllers tap into the tow vehicle's hydraulic or air brake systems and get their trigger signal mechanically. But the Prodigy controllers do not fall into this group, they definitely have an electrical trigger input.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:37 PM   #7
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The issue with the wireless controller is that the tow vehicle brake signal is inferred directly from the tail light signals in the trailer connector. If those tail lights are active with the exhaust brake, they will activate the trailer brakes whenever the exhaust brake is active, and that would be a bad thing on a long hill.
Pardon my ignorance but I'm not sure I fully understand...

If I use my EB to slow down (decelerate) I can see that the trailer brakes are going to be applied by the inertia. But if I am holding a speed (i.e., 45mph) on a long hill and I'm not decelerating, is there going to be any noticeable inertia (braking) taking place?
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:49 PM   #8
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But if I am holding a speed (i.e., 45mph) on a long hill and I'm not decelerating, is there going to be any noticeable inertia (braking) taking place?
Ah, but you are decelerating. Gravity is pulling on you and trying to accelerate you, and your exhaust brake is countering that acceleration. Don't believe me? You can prove it to yourself: On a long down hill, turn off your exhaust brake, and you'll see you are starting to pick up speed. Now turn on your exhaust brake -- you'll feel the braking effort, and so will your trailer and trailer brake (or toad brake) controller.
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:52 AM   #9
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Sorry but I noticed that I have hijacked the thread...if you would like me to start another one I will.

So I need to find the wire (if it exists) that is only hot when the brakes are activated and run that back to my 7 pin connector and then rewire the connector?....
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Old 12-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #10
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Sorry but I noticed that I have hijacked the thread...if you would like me to start another one I will.
Sofar-Sogood will have to answer that, but your questions might be close enough for him to get some benefit?

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So I need to find the wire (if it exists) that is only hot when the brakes are activated and run that back to my 7 pin connector and then rewire the connector?....
No, not really. The wires going to your 7 pin connector should be good, including the output from the brake controller. The potential issue is the trigger signal going into your controller. If your trailer brakes don't activate now when the exhaust brake is on, you're good to go. But if they do activate with the exhaust brake, then you may have to do a little re-wiring. But the good news is that it is mostly under the dash, and does not affect the wires going all the way back to the 7-pin connector.

If you can find the wires going to the brake pedal switch, look to see if one of them has power when the pedal is pressed, and no power when its released. That will be the trigger signal you want to use for the controller. Hopefully this signal won't be active when the exhaust brake is on. If it is, then the exhaust brake is back-feeding this signal and things will get more complicated -- you will have to figure out how to prevent the exhaust brake from activating the brake lights, or you will have to figure out how to add a diode or relay to isolate that brake pedal signal. Some coaches are wired with a dedicated brake controller signal wire (like mine, which has a brake controller harness plug waiting in the side console.) Others will be fairly straightforward to find such a signal (by tapping at the brake switch.) While others could be a real bear to find or make the right signal.

But the good news is that none of this affects the wires going to the 7-pin connector. If you have a controller that looks at the trailer brake/turn signals on the 7-pin such as the wireless Prodigy, then your best option will be to make it so that the exhaust brake doesn't activate the trailer brake lights (unless you want to get into some really extensive rewiring, at which point you're defeating the whole purpose of the wireless Prodigy and might as well go with a more standard hard-wired controller.)

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Another question, I need to tow a 24' trailer with my 03 Patriot. The connector on the trailer is a 7 pin, the one on the coach is a 6 pin. Not really a problem since there are connector/converters that will work, my question is if the coach might be wired for a electrical brake controller?

Im hoping that it is, if not it looks like I will have to run wiring from the front dash to the rear trailer connection. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
If it's wired to standards, you should already have a brake controller pin on your 6-pin connector. (But that doesn't necessary mean your coach builder has run the wires in a way that makes it easy to use.) When using standard wiring conventions, the difference between a 6 pin and 7 pin connector is the addition of a backup lights circuit. A pretty good description of the wiring conventions is here: Trailer Wiring Diagrams | etrailer.com

I say it's pretty good because this page doesn't discuss one of the vagaries of the 6-pin connector: sometimes, the trailer brake control signal and the battery voltage wire can be swapped. That page doesn't mention this.

If you can't find an owner of an '03 Patriot who has already gone through this or who has a wiring diagram (which I'm sure is the goal of your post) you may have to resort to figuring it out yourself. My suggestion would be to start by printing out the image for the connector that looks closest to yours, and start measuring voltages at the various pins. It should be pretty easy to confirm most of them. For example, if a pin has power when your headlights are on, and not when they are off, that's the running lights. If a pin pulses power when a turn signal is on, then that's the corresponding turn signal.

Check the two pins indicated as trailer brake and battery power. If one of them always has power, that's the battery signal, and the other is likely the brake signal. If neither of them ever has power, then the culprit is likely a bad fuse.

If you figure out which pin is most likely the brake signal, check the back of the connector to see if there is a wire there. If not, then your worst fears have been recognized and you will have to run a wire. If there is a wire there, then it will be a matter of finding the other end of the wire, which is not necessarily a better situation: if you can't find the other end of that wire, it might be easier to just run a new wire.
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:26 PM   #11
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Ok I called Monaco and they said the 6 wire connector (that only has 5 wires going to it) up under the dash is already wired off the service brakes and not the brake lights. He knew exactly why I was asking and continued to explain that if the trailer brakes were activated with the exhaust brake I'd burn up the brakes on long grades....gee is it possible I am home free and just need to hook up the brake controller.....
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:47 PM   #12
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Maybe your in luck, my 03 dosent have the brake controller wiring.
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Old 01-03-2014, 06:23 AM   #13
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Ok I called Monaco and they said the 6 wire connector (that only has 5 wires going to it) up under the dash is already wired off the service brakes and not the brake lights. He knew exactly why I was asking and continued to explain that if the trailer brakes were activated with the exhaust brake I'd burn up the brakes on long grades....gee is it possible I am home free and just need to hook up the brake controller.....
That's the way mine was wired - it was a piece of cake to hook things up. All the wires were even labeled.

I thought Monaco put some thought into this, and after hearing your describe your call, I'm convinced they put a lot of thought into it. From my coach, I knew they had that connector wired up correctly (other brands may not be so lucky.) But I was always confused by why the coach brake lights would come on with the exhaust brakes, but not the trailer brake lights. But after the discussions on this thread and some other related current threads, I wonder if this was a conscious choice on their end, because of the possibility that someone would use a controller like the wireless Prodigy? If that's the reason, it's a pretty good compromise: the coach lights come on to warn of exhaust braking, but the trailer lights don't because that might trigger some braking systems.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:37 AM   #14
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Ok I thought I should update this so if anyone looks at this they will know how it came out and may help someone in the future.

The connector was not around the headlight switch but instead it was in the side console near the floor. I had to use a sniffer to find it. All the wires were labeled and the trailer brakes are in fact activated by the service brakes (brake pedal) only and not activated by the exhaust brake.
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