Wandering, sway bars, alignment, ride height, oh my!!

[Alan Wilson]

Originally Posted by Soulpatch

Just found this thread yesterday. And so glad I did. I'm still shaking my head thinking how horrible this could have ended. We purchased our 1999 Monaco Diplomat 38 about 6 years ago. We have had the usual maintenance issues, way to many to list here.
The MH has always had a bad wandering issue, but being that this is our first MH, and being told by several folks that this was normal for big rigs, I just lived with it. We have done some very long trips and we are getting ready to do a cross country trip of about 7000 miles. The MH has 38000 miles but because of the age we decided to replace all 6 tires and have the front end aligned. This did help slightly, but still had the feeling that in a hard brake that the MH did felt what I can describe as the front end sliding sideways, not pulling, but sliding.
Yesterday as I was driving home from having some electrical work done, I was flagged down by a couple who had been following behind for some distance. I pulled over and went to the back of the MH and met the couple, who informed me that they could see the rear tires moving side to side about 3 or 4 inches, sometimes coming out of the wheel well. I was only a couple miles from home, so I drove slowly and made it home.
After climbing under the rig and doing and inspection I found that of the 10 rear bushings in the trailing arms and PH bar, there was only 1 bushing in place, the rest of the spaces where bushing should be were completely empty. Of the 10 in front, 3 were missing.
My first thought was how could this have been missed by the folks who did the tires and alignment. How long have they been this bad, and the sick feeling in my gut, thinking of all of the folks I have had in the MH on some of those trips, and how I hadn't had some catastrophic failure.
Needles to say I need to purchase all new bushings. Is it possible to order the right size with out measuring the old bushings? Where can I order them?
So, as I said I found this thread yesterday, and stayed up all night reading all 108 pages. This has been the most helpful and educational read since I bought the MH.
Can anyone help with what size bushings I need for 99 Diplomat 38a?
Where is the best place to purchase?
Are the cross braces available for purchase?

I have no idea what bushings you need but I will throw out a suggestion. Call Brazel's RV in Centralia Washington. They are one of the best places I know of for information, parts and service. Their phone # is 360 736-9494 and ask for Jon Brazel. Great people there with many many answers.


Alan Wilson

2001 HR Scepter 38 PBD

[mhughes]

Willie,

I should point out that the few I have left are the production prototypes.
The $350 is close to the actual cost of materials, labor and development fees.
It does not represent the actual cost of production models.

These will be available at Henderson's Line UP in Grants Pass OR along with professional installation.

[mhughes]

Myron,

Thanks for the offer to test and evaluate. I have quite a few here on the west coast doing just that already.

If I need another tester I'll surely consider your offer.

[rmcb]

Mike,
I think my pivot bolt weld failure was probably due to cooling too fast after welding the dissimilar metals. The crack followed the bevel, right along the inside edge of the weld puddle. Your use of

Your addition of the seals is also a really neat idea.

Roy

[nodine]

Originally Posted by Soulpatch

Just found this thread yesterday. And so glad I did. I'm still shaking my head thinking how horrible this could have ended. We purchased our 1999 Monaco Diplomat 38 about 6 years ago. We have had the usual maintenance issues, way to many to list here.
The MH has always had a bad wandering issue, but being that this is our first MH, and being told by several folks that this was normal for big rigs, I just lived with it. We have done some very long trips and we are getting ready to do a cross country trip of about 7000 miles. The MH has 38000 miles but because of the age we decided to replace all 6 tires and have the front end aligned. This did help slightly, but still had the feeling that in a hard brake that the MH did felt what I can describe as the front end sliding sideways, not pulling, but sliding.
Yesterday as I was driving home from having some electrical work done, I was flagged down by a couple who had been following behind for some distance. I pulled over and went to the back of the MH and met the couple, who informed me that they could see the rear tires moving side to side about 3 or 4 inches, sometimes coming out of the wheel well. I was only a couple miles from home, so I drove slowly and made it home.
After climbing under the rig and doing and inspection I found that of the 10 rear bushings in the trailing arms and PH bar, there was only 1 bushing in place, the rest of the spaces where bushing should be were completely empty. Of the 10 in front, 3 were missing.
My first thought was how could this have been missed by the folks who did the tires and alignment. How long have they been this bad, and the sick feeling in my gut, thinking of all of the folks I have had in the MH on some of those trips, and how I hadn't had some catastrophic failure.
Needles to say I need to purchase all new bushings. Is it possible to order the right size with out measuring the old bushings? Where can I order them?
So, as I said I found this thread yesterday, and stayed up all night reading all 108 pages. This has been the most helpful and educational read since I bought the MH.
Can anyone help with what size bushings I need for 99 Diplomat 38a?
Where is the best place to purchase?
Are the cross braces available for purchase?

Willie,

Van is the resident expert on bushings and I am sure he will chime in when he sees your post. Van discovered that coaches built prior to (memory) about 2000 or 2001 had inferior bushings that would disintegrate after they aged. Sounds like that is what happened with your coach. The degradation in handling would be gradual over time and maybe you just lived with it.

I believe this is the source that Van uses for bushings but best to wait and see what he says.
Truck Front Suspension | ATRO Engineered Systems

Bob

[pwhittle]

At least the hard work of getting the bushings out is already done. That is a time saver.

Unfortunately there may be some damage to the trailing arms where the bushings were that will need to be addressed.

Here's hoping for a simple resolution.

Paul

[Vanwill]

Originally Posted by Soulpatch

Just found this thread yesterday. And so glad I did. I'm still shaking my head thinking how horrible this could have ended. We purchased our 1999 Monaco Diplomat 38 about 6 years ago. We have had the usual maintenance issues, way to many to list here.
The MH has always had a bad wandering issue, but being that this is our first MH, and being told by several folks that this was normal for big rigs, I just lived with it. We have done some very long trips and we are getting ready to do a cross country trip of about 7000 miles. The MH has 38000 miles but because of the age we decided to replace all 6 tires and have the front end aligned. This did help slightly, but still had the feeling that in a hard brake that the MH did felt what I can describe as the front end sliding sideways, not pulling, but sliding.
Yesterday as I was driving home from having some electrical work done, I was flagged down by a couple who had been following behind for some distance. I pulled over and went to the back of the MH and met the couple, who informed me that they could see the rear tires moving side to side about 3 or 4 inches, sometimes coming out of the wheel well. I was only a couple miles from home, so I drove slowly and made it home.
After climbing under the rig and doing and inspection I found that of the 10 rear bushings in the trailing arms and PH bar, there was only 1 bushing in place, the rest of the spaces where bushing should be were completely empty. Of the 10 in front, 3 were missing.
My first thought was how could this have been missed by the folks who did the tires and alignment. How long have they been this bad, and the sick feeling in my gut, thinking of all of the folks I have had in the MH on some of those trips, and how I hadn't had some catastrophic failure.
Needles to say I need to purchase all new bushings. Is it possible to order the right size with out measuring the old bushings? Where can I order them?
So, as I said I found this thread yesterday, and stayed up all night reading all 108 pages. This has been the most helpful and educational read since I bought the MH.
Can anyone help with what size bushings I need for 99 Diplomat 38a?
Where is the best place to purchase?
Are the cross braces available for purchase?

Willie, I've never heard of a case quite that bad, but if the bushings in your coach were the older two-piece solid polyurethane design, it is certainly possible. Even a small amount of bushing deterioration could cause a serious degradation in handling, and would certainly cause wandering. I doubt your trailing arm or Panhard rod bores are damaged to the point that the newer style steel-jacketed bushings cannot be pressed in, although it is possible.

I am a great fan of the ATRO brand bushing. It is a very stiff polyurethane bushing with a steel core and steel jacket. You can also buy from either Monaco or Source Engineering the replacement bushing that Monaco began using in about the year 2000. Even the Monaco OEM bushing would be a big improvement over the two-piece polyurethane bushings you almost surely had in your coach. I think the Monaco OEM bushing will cost about $22 each. The ATRO is nearly twice that. Replacing the bushings is a big job, but knowing that you have had several of the bushings badly deteriorated, you can bet the rest of them are in bad condition, also. There are (20) total bushings in your coach. They are 2.000 (nominal) OD x .88 ID x 3.00 long.

Your coach, like all the ones we have worked on, would benefit from crossed rear braces and at least a front Watts link. I no longer make these except in cases where someone desperately needs help and has no other recourse. Mike Hughes can take care of that for you, and both the crossed braces and front Watts link are a bolt-on. Mike’s work is impeccable, and he is a great guy to work with.

PM me through this forum and we can discuss this offline and on the phone. I assure you that if you make these repairs and especially if you add crossed rear braces and a front Watts link, you will be totally amazed at the improvement in your coach’s handling. One hand, two-finger driving is entirely possible, and the experience can be relaxing rather than stressful.

[snowsurfer56]

Thank you for all the responses. Im sure that some of these bushings were bad when we purchased the RV. And just assumed that the wandering was normal for a big rig. I am on the phone now trying to get it in for repair. I found a shop that could do the work but he wants to know who makes the suspension, I told him it was a road master chassis, but he says the suspension is not. I asked about the Atro bushings, he says putting the hard bushings in will translate to a rougher ride because they don't absorb vibrations like rubber does. I didnt want to get into why I prefer the Atro, but I am not replacing them with rubber.
Can anyone tell me who makes the suspension? So I dont have to drive the RV around town to have someone look at it.
Van, thank you for the size of those bushings. And huge thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
I absolutely need to purchase the rear cross brace and front watts link, and will order today. I will contact Mike.

[walt2137]

Willie he is wrong the whole chassis is built by Roadmaster and Van gave you good info on the Atro bushings and Van knows this chassis well and what it needs, I don't think you can expect a good ride out of the bushings that is not their job that would be the shocks, air bags and ride height.

Ps if your shocks are what came on the coach then you would need shocks , the Dip came with Monroes and please don't replace with Monroes.

[snowsurfer56]

Thanks Walt, I did not mention it, but I will have the shocks replaced. Any recommendations?

I didnt want to get into a long discussion about ride, but it didn't make sense that bushings would affect ride.

[walt2137]

Yes I would recommend Bilstein and the part # for the 99 Dip is 24-187336 and that is supposed to come with a B setting for comfort according to Bilstein. E shock has the best price at $86.50 each but wont have them in stock until September, Shockwarehouse runs about $91 each and it could be other suppliers.
Koni is another good shock but they are $150+ each, read the shock road test below

Shock Therapy: RV Shock Absorber Test

Willie check your messages

[snowsurfer56]

Thanks Walt, I responded to your message.

[Vanwill]

Originally Posted by Soulpatch

Thank you for all the responses. Im sure that some of these bushings were bad when we purchased the RV. And just assumed that the wandering was normal for a big rig. I am on the phone now trying to get it in for repair. I found a shop that could do the work but he wants to know who makes the suspension, I told him it was a road master chassis, but he says the suspension is not. I asked about the Atro bushings, he says putting the hard bushings in will translate to a rougher ride because they don't absorb vibrations like rubber does. I didnt want to get into why I prefer the Atro, but I am not replacing them with rubber.
Can anyone tell me who makes the suspension? So I dont have to drive the RV around town to have someone look at it.
Van, thank you for the size of those bushings. And huge thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
I absolutely need to purchase the rear cross brace and front watts link, and will order today. I will contact Mike.

Willie, you will LOVE the improvement in handling of your coach, even if you use the OEM later-model bushings instead of the ATRO. No, the bushings have no significant effect on the ride, even if they are VERY stiff. Their stiffness, however, has a great deal of effect on handling.

Please update us later after you have replaced the bushings. I would STRONGLY advise you to replace the bushings AND NOTHING ELSE for your first move. When you change too many things at once, you can never be sure how much effect each change had. You really need to experience the improvement in handling before you change shocks or anything else.

Keep us posted!

[snowsurfer56]

Van,
I will be taking the MH in Thursday. I found a shop that can do the work, and he ordered the Atro bushings today. I also ordered new Bilstein shocks today, I will have them tomorrow. I understand about not changing to many things at once. But the shop agreed to install the shocks while they have it, and he quoted me a pretty good price for all of the work. I'm sure the shocks are original so they really need to be done. I will be purchasing the rear cross brace and front Watts link from Mike and installing them both myself after this other work is done.
When it's all said and done, I will have replaced tires, shocks, all 20 bushings, and added the cross brace and watts link. I'm not sure if I'll know how to act the first time I take her down the road. I can tell you I'm very excited about being able to head out on a long trip soon, and not be beat to hell after driving just a few hours like in the past.
I can't thank all the folks enough, who contributed to this thread, knowing just how many folks benefited, and how much less stressful and more enjoyable the drives are now.