Wandering, sway bars, alignment, ride height, oh my!!

[Vanwill]

Some of you guys that have been with this thread a long time will remember the fellow who said he had replaced the steel-encased gusher-type bushings in the control arms of his Camaro with solid steel ones, to make it handle better (more rigidity in the front suspension). I asked him if the change didn’t make his Camaro ride very harshly. He replied quite emphatically that he could tell no change in ride quality, but that handling was noticeably improved.

For quite some time now, it has been evident that replacing the pre-2000 bushings with the ATRO bushings was a near 100% sure cure for wandering. I don’t have much input from folks with later model coaches replacing their bushings with the ATRO bushings. I think that is because most wandering occurs in coaches with the older two-piece soft urethane bushings. The newer bushings, although not as stiff as the ATRO bushings, are considerably stiffer than the earlier ones.

I’m thinking of machining some bushings out of UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) polyethylene with a steel, stainless steel, or bronze inner sleeve. These would be orders of magnitude stiffer than even the newer style Monaco bushings. I’m attaching a crude sketch. The UHMW is extremely high lubricity material, virtually unbreakable, and although it is quite dense, it is not as hard as nylon or any metal material. The UHMW outside diameter would be the usual press fit in the trailing arm. The inner sleeve would be a light press fit (greased at assembly) into the UHMW, and the inner sleeve’s OD would be polished. When installed, the inner sleeve would be rigidly fastened to the coach brackets by the 7/8-9 bolt going through it, so the UHMW bushing would have to rotate slightly on the inner sleeve when the trailing arms moved up or down. The two stainless steel washers trap the UHMW and give it something smooth to rotate against in the event it had any tendency to move. They probably are not necessary, since they are not used on either the ATRO or the later model Monaco bushings, both of which allow the inner sleeve to rotate, albeit with great torque required.

As I’ve said before, I no longer own a coach that wanders, so I don’t own a personal “Guinea Pig” and rely on you guys to test out these designs. Adding a brace is not a difficult job, but removing bushings can be. For that reason, I’m going to install these UHMW bushings on my present coach just to verify that they do not transmit any harshness from road bumps and other irregularities. It may take me awhile, but I’ll report the results. If you have any thoughts or ideas, let me know.

Also, I mention once again that if you have a coach that wanders badly, especially a pre-2000 coach, and you are within driving distance of eastern NC, contact me. If your coach fits my “profile” for the kind of coach I’d like to experiment on, I may be willing to physically help you install trial “fixes”.

Thanks to all who have contributed.

Merry Christmas!

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36 pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[Vanwill]

Can anyone tell me why, when I attach files that sometimes they appear as a picture in the message, and other times the URL to their location is given. Also, they seem to appear as vastly different sizes if they appear in the message.

Thanks,
Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36 pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[Vanwill]

I hope all you guys had a great Christmas holiday. NO, I did not say "Happy Holiday Season". I feel as if I almost know many of you. I hope we get to meet someday.

A friend of mine who lives a few hours from me in NC is a retired Navy Aviation Maintenance Master Chief. I don’t know a lot about the military. From the short time I was in it, I learned there are three kinds of soldiers. 1) The ones that make things happen, 2) The ones that watch things happen, and 3) The ones always wondering “WTH just happened?” I was always in the last category; my friend was in the first.

I don’t think my friend has ever contributed to this forum, but he has been instrumental in helping me think through wandering/suspension ideas. He is good at tactfully saying, “Ya got this one wrong, Van.” He has a great “feel” for “how things work”. He also happens to have a near-vintage Dynasty, and one so short that all the “old heads” would say could never be made to handle well. His coach, like my first one, was a road-wild beast that only steely eyes and white knuckles could keep under control. Now, he drives it with two fingers while tuning the radio and reaching for his coffee cup.

He and I have collaborated on several ideas. He understands the concept that the P-rod flexes fore and aft, allowing the H-frame to point your wheels first one way and then another, without any input from you. He and I have both replaced P-rod bushings with similarly dramatic results. Just like the fellow on this thread who “woke me up” by asking, “Why can’t that be a bolt-on improvement”, my friend has proposed a P-rod enhancement that is easily a bolt-on improvement. I should have thought if it myself. I’m going to make up a prototype and try it out. I just wish I had a wandering coach to try it on—I can draw only minimal data from a coach that has no serious handling problems to start with. My offer stands—if you are within driving distance of eastern NC, and have a coach that wanders (especially pre-2000) contact me offline. I may want to help you physically update your coach.

When I have some sketches completed of the P-rod stiffening attachments, I’ll post them. I invite your comments, including your criticisms. The end purpose of this thread is not about whose idea turned out to be the best. It’s about FINDING that best idea. Who cares whose idea it was as long as it helps fellow Monaco owners? Even that guy who told us all long ago that he was “entitled” to be condescending towards those whose intellect and understanding paled in comparison to his—if he has an idea that sounds good to ME, I’ll try it. And if he’s right, I’ll give him credit for it.

Again, thanks for all the thought you have all contributed to this thread.

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36 pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[ChucknBecky]

To all,
I have been lurking on this forum, for a long time. Have taken lots of great ideas and applied them to my coach. I think it is time that I add my 2 cents worth to this thread. Thanks for all the pointers!


We acquired our 1991 Monaco Dynasty 31 in April 2010 and we love the beast. Our ride home was an eye opener to say the least. You had to pay attention 100% of the time, no time to enjoy the great view out of the huge windshield. So got her home and went through lots of things to get it to where we can now enjoy a trip!

Specifics:
1991 Monaco Dynasty 31
180 hp cummins 6BTA with 4 speed allison
16ft wheel base short coupled to say the least
Current mileage 86000 give or take.
Replaced all 8 shocks Bielstein front Monroe rear, half the shocks had no resistance in compression/extension. This helped immensely in combating the hobby horse affect, especially traveling on I95 in South Carolina....I swear, they built sections of road in SC out of recycled speed bumps! Still wandered just as bad, but damped the vertical axis a lot!
Replaced both rear ride height valves. I did this because the coach would never come to a stop with the same stance! sometimes it would be left side down and then it would be level then other times right side down. (measured from bumper to ground on both sides). Dove right in, found them for about 50 bucks each at a log truck repair shop. Figured them out, installed and adjusted them. Worked as advertised. Repeatable results! Was happy about this, but no help on wandering.

Repacked front bearings, this was a chore, because at the time I did not have the right size lug nut socket. So I popped the hub cap off, unscrewed the axle nut, and repacked the bearings. The grease was pristine, bearings looked new. No influence on handling. Just did it to do it. Have since purchased the right size socket, will be easier this spring. Gave me a sense of accomplishment, but not much else...still wandered

Adjusted high angle steering box. I noticed that with the engine off, there was lots of steering wheel play. Lifted front wheels off the ground, had neighbor wiggle wheel while I watched the pitman arm for movement. I found that there was lots of movement of the input shaft before any pitman arm movement. I adjusted the play down to about a 1/4 inch of movement in the steering wheel. Took me a while to get it down pat. Was well worth getting it right. This was a huge improvement in wandering. Still had a mind of its own, but at least I had control of the reins now! You could catch the wander before it scared the cars around you, wander still there, but much subdued.

Replaced all 10 front H frame bushings with Monaco replacement bushings. This was a big undertaking and is where I first came in contact with Van on another forum. Bought the new style Monaco bushings. Took a while, because I had to use a sawzall to cut about half the bolts. The inner sleeve was corroded/welded to the grade 8 bolts. Still have that sawzall, had it smoking a couple of times....one tough unit! This endeavor had small improvement in wandering, but the steering gear box still wins out.
Replaced P-rod bushings on rear axle. Both bolts came out just fine. Was an easy procedure. This was an eye opening improvement! No more blisters on my elbows rubbing on the arm rests! Drove like a Cadillac...where do I sign up..WOO HOO! Wandering was miniscule compared to when we bought it. Still a little squirrely when being passed by a semi, but no big suprises!
Installed Hellwig rear stabilizer bar. This improved performance in cross winds, and when getting passed by semis. It is a keeper.
Installed diagonal cross braces on lower trail bars (provided by Van) There is an improvement in handling after huge emergency swerves. There is probably an improvement in wandering, but I can't tell how much yet. I am going to disconnect the sway bar and perform a test drive when the yard dries out. Will let you know how that comes out.
What have I learned from all this? In my humble opinion, conquering wandering is all about having the systems operate as they were intended. Maintenance issues, worn sloppy bushings, out of tolerance steering gear boxes, worn out shocks. Front end alignment, not much affect. Tires may have some input but not much, ride height not much either, but you still need to take care to ensure both are within spec. The basic design of the RR8R/S chassis has some limitations too. Relatively small/weak bushings trying to harness huge tires, H frames and axles attached to airbags. Unless you are driving on a glass smooth road, with no wind, any give/deflection in the bushings is going to create twist in the H frame which will cause the axle/wheels to take up a new track without any input from the driver. Don't trust me, do the Van tail wag test and see what is really happening. Pay special attention to the P rod. The system is designed to perform to a certain standard, but wander is still happening, just at an acceptable level, depending on what you think is acceptable. Any improvement in preventing H frame twist is going to improve most coach handling problems. It won't take much to stiffen up things. Sorry for the book.....whew!
Chuck and Becky Barnes
lckspt@aol.com
p.s. I have done lots more to our coach other than wandering fixes, but wanted to keep the reply to addressing wandering. Give me a shout about other things if you want.
Cheers!

[walt2137]

I have a 2000 Dynasty 40 ft my coach handles and drives good buti decided to try Vans single cross brace to see if it improved the handling after the installation we made a 400 + mile trip, I didnt notice a big difference in handling or driving i reported that to Van and he susgested that I install the second cross brace but before i did to do a severe lane change maneuver.
Well i took the coach out today to try the hard lane change,i did the lane change 2 times at 45 and 4 times at 55 the coach handles it like a car not even a minor problem. I will install the second cross bar to finish the test at a later date.
Thanks Van for allowing me to participate.

[Vanwill]

Thanks for the report, Walt. Your coach, like my 2000 Dynasty, does not wander enough to even warrant doing anything about, so it's not a good test bed for wandering fixes. I did notice the same thing before and after brace installation on my previous coach, though--the rapid lane change maneuver was dramatically more stable.

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36, pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[Vanwill]

I'm working on a prototype for a Panhard rod stiffener. The idea came from Chuck. He is the friend I referred to earlier who had a very short Dynasty that wandered badly and is now a great handler. He is a very sharp guy, a retired Navy Master Chief, and has some great ideas and a good feel for mechanical things.

But I need to know the length of P-rods on different coaches. Although the length of trailing arms can vary depending on the coach size and wheelbase, I suspect most, if not all, P-rods are the same center-to-center length. I would surely appreciate it if a bunch of y'all would just use a tape measure to measure that center-to-center length, front and rear, within a half inch or so, and post it online, along with the particulars of your coach. Doesn't matter whether you any intentions of installing a brace or not. I just need some info to make this easier.

This idea of Chuck's has not been tried out yet, but it looks really promising to me. And it offers a fix for the front end of post 1994 coaches which have the genny on a slide. That generator arrangement makes it very difficult to get a brace on the front end. Luckily, the vast majority of the problem comes from the rear suspension, but the same design is used in the front, so I'm sure there are improvements that can be made there, too.

TIA for your help.

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36, pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[crah]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

I'm working on a prototype for a Panhard rod stiffener. The idea came from Chuck. He is the friend I referred to earlier who had a very short Dynasty that wandered badly and is now a great handler. He is a very sharp guy, a retired Navy Master Chief, and has some great ideas and a good feel for mechanical things.

But I need to know the length of P-rods on different coaches. Although the length of trailing arms can vary depending on the coach size and wheelbase, I suspect most, if not all, P-rods are the same center-to-center length. I would surely appreciate it if a bunch of y'all would just use a tape measure to measure that center-to-center length, front and rear, within a half inch or so, and post it online, along with the particulars of your coach. Doesn't matter whether you any intentions of installing a brace or not. I just need some info to make this easier.

This idea of Chuck's has not been tried out yet, but it looks really promising to me. And it offers a fix for the front end of post 1994 coaches which have the genny on a slide. That generator arrangement makes it very difficult to get a brace on the front end. Luckily, the vast majority of the problem comes from the rear suspension, but the same design is used in the front, so I'm sure there are improvements that can be made there, too.

TIA for your help.

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36, pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

Van

I think the p rods will vary. Monaco made the main rails wider apart somewhere along the line. I know when I installed my sway bars from source engineering the original one I got was too wide and was made for a 2004 Windsor. I'm thinking it was around 2004 that the frame rails went wider about 4 inches so that may vary. I think I have my p rod dimensions in some old pictures I will dig up.

[Vanwill]

Thanks, Craig. Hopefully, there will only be two lengths, then.

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36, pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[crah]

Here are some old picture I found. I don't remember if the shorter p rod was for the front or rear though.

[Papa_Jim]

I'll probably add some confusion to our 'think tank', but here goes.

Now that our coach has new suspension bushings, and the VanWill cross brace, it handles like it's on rails. In fact, I can't make it lean. It just sits flat as we enter into sharp corners, and sits there flat as a pancake as we negotiate the corner. The same is true for high speed bends in the highway. I've come to realize that I have to figure out what a safe speed is to take these sharp bends in the highway, because I can't rely on how the coach feels. Wow!

Now. Regarding lean, or sway. With all components tight, as they should be as properly manufactured from the factory. The airbags are small and mounted outboard as far as possible. Is that why the coach does not lean or sway?

I'm not trying to confuse things, but I'm wondering if the cross braces are the contributing factor to less lean or sway, or whether lean or sway is controlled by tight suspension components and outboard air bags.

Now that I've contributed this thought, I will also make this statement. I will not remove the VanWill cross brace in an effort to find the answer to this question.

I have the best handling and riding coach that can be found anywhere, and I'm doing nothing to jeopardize that.

JMHO.

Jim

[sp49]

Van, Just thought that I would give an update on our 2001 Holiday Rambler 34PBD. This is a four bag suspension system. The rear suspension is a Neway model AD-160 with two air bags. Newway has been bought out by SAF Holland.US. What we are trying to find are the atro bushings for this suspension. The Newway parts numbers do not cross over to an atro number. If anyone has run into this before, what did you do? We have 3 months before we are going anywhere. This model of Holiday Rambler does not have the trailing arm issues that some of the others have had. If these break, you have a lot bigger problem.
Tom

[Vanwill]

Tom, my only suggestion would be to try to get the ID, OD and length dimensions, and then go to the ATRO site. Ruppparts.com may be able to help.

Van W. 2000 Dynasty 36, pulling one Harley
Eastern NC

[sp49]

Van, The shop has been in contact with and Atro supplier. I will give them Rupparts.com. Thanks for the help.
Tom