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Old 06-30-2014, 07:01 PM   #855
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Just an FYI, I have no play in my slip joint, I put a wrench on the yoke and had a helper try and turn the wheel. What you seen in the pictures is I pushed the slip joint full closed to allow me to remove my box.

Just in case you wondered those boxes weigh about 75 LBS !
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Old 06-30-2014, 07:44 PM   #856
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Great pictures Craig. I was just looking at the repair section for the Sheppard and found about 20 different fluids you can use. I wonder if one of the heavier fluids would firm things up a bit. Found out it would be impractical to cut new gears. Might find some ball bearings a tiny bit larger.

Just a quick story to share. Looking at the rubber boot reminded me of the disaster I almost had. The carpet installer cut the boot with their knife and the boot fell down. It eventually caught on something, tore, and wound itself around the u joint on the steering shaft. Found it would only turn one direction getting on to the freeway one day. That was not fun.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:26 PM   #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC1 View Post
No slop was noticed. So the play is inside the gear box. I am going to see if I have any diagrams of the insides of it. Anyone thought of having new gears machined? A friend of mine made gear boxes for engine/propeller systems. I am sure it could be done with tighter tolerances.
Myron,
I’ll try to keep this short enough not to bore everyone (difficult for me <G>). Cutting new gears for the Sheppard box would still not be as good as the TRW/Ross box. There are some peculiarities of the TRW box that can only be described as “not quite correct” as it pertains to involute gear design. These peculiarities would make the gears inside a TRW box unsuitable in a power transmission gearbox—they would be noisy and wear quickly. HOWEVER, in this particular application, the “not quite correct” design was brilliant, allowing an almost unlimited ability to adjust to zero lost motion, without causing any binding at any other angular position.

Sheppard simply “blueprints” the box to get minimal lost motion, with no way to adjust gear clearance. I’ve never verified this, but I suspect that anyone with a Sheppard box that has significant lost motion, might be able to turn the wheel 90 degrees and find that the lost motion is substantially less. In the TRW box, the exact opposite is true.
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:05 PM   #858
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Myron,

It seems my assembly is a little different than yours. My spline or shaft is shaped like a hexagon and a 3/4 inch box wrench fits it perfectly. I don't have a picture of it with the dust boot removed.

Craig, if I read your post correctly, you removed you u joint from the steering box and pushed the assembly up out of the way? Can the assembly be pulled down completely without removing the steering gear?

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Old 07-01-2014, 06:36 AM   #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC1 View Post
Great pictures Craig. I was just looking at the repair section for the Sheppard and found about 20 different fluids you can use. I wonder if one of the heavier fluids would firm things up a bit. Found out it would be impractical to cut new gears. Might find some ball bearings a tiny bit larger.

Just a quick story to share. Looking at the rubber boot reminded me of the disaster I almost had. The carpet installer cut the boot with their knife and the boot fell down. It eventually caught on something, tore, and wound itself around the u joint on the steering shaft. Found it would only turn one direction getting on to the freeway one day. That was not fun.
Wow, I want to make sure and not use those carpet installers ! I have made sure that both the Sheppard and the TRW use the same fluid and pump specs, that was one of the first hurdles as I wanted to make sure swapping steering boxes did not facilitate a power steering pump change. I think that would have made me throw in the towel.

I may wander off to the parts yard to help in the pitman arm search, but I will give the tech a few hours.
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Old 07-01-2014, 06:51 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by crah View Post
Myron,

It seems my assembly is a little different than yours. My spline or shaft is shaped like a hexagon and a 3/4 inch box wrench fits it perfectly. I don't have a picture of it with the dust boot removed.

Craig, if I read your post correctly, you removed you u joint from the steering box and pushed the assembly up out of the way? Can the assembly be pulled down completely without removing the steering gear?

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Crah,


I did not try and pull down on the shaft assembly when I unbolted it from the gear box. I tried pushing it up out of the way and it stayed there, I thought it might fall back in my face but it did not.

It should pull right out as it is just a splined shaft inside a splined collar, one could check for wear or play in the U joint or signs of wear on the shaft. I would doubt in any reasonable mileage coach that the shaft would be worn but the U joint might have some play in it. I bet that is a inexpensive part to replace as parts go.

Just for info, the problem with the pitman arm was the drag link hole was not large enough. The taper of the hole was correct but just not large enough.
My Sheppard pitman arm was 1 1/6 on the small side and 1 3/16 on the large side.

I am going to provide the tech with Vanwil's pitman arm number and see if there is a chance it might work. I will look back and see if Harry...Happycarz..gave me his pitman arm info.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:14 AM   #861
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Originally Posted by CrazyKnight View Post

Crah,

I did not try and pull down on the shaft assembly when I unbolted it from the gear box. I tried pushing it up out of the way and it stayed there, I thought it might fall back in my face but it did not.

It should pull right out as it is just a splined shaft inside a splined collar, one could check for wear or play in the U joint or signs of wear on the shaft. I would doubt in any reasonable mileage coach that the shaft would be worn but the U joint might have some play in it. I bet that is a inexpensive part to replace as parts go.

Just for info, the problem with the pitman arm was the drag link hole was not large enough. The taper of the hole was correct but just not large enough.
My Sheppard pitman arm was 1 1/6 on the small side and 1 3/16 on the large side.

I am going to provide the tech with Vanwil's pitman arm number and see if there is a chance it might work. I will look back and see if Harry...Happycarz..gave me his pitman arm info.
Thanks for the info. My play is in the slip joint and not at the u joint. I can see the upper shaft move freely before the bottom section turns. About half inch or slightly more at the wheel.
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Old 07-01-2014, 09:17 AM   #862
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Thanks for the info. My play is in the slip joint and not at the u joint. I can see the upper shaft move freely before the bottom section turns. About half inch or slightly more at the wheel.
OK. That is a new problem in this mix. Good catch. Good luck and keep us posted.

PS New Pitman arm on the way
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Old 07-01-2014, 09:23 AM   #863
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OK. That is a new problem in this mix. Good catch. Good luck and keep us posted.

PS New Pitman arm on the way
Good luck on the arm. Does the u joint assembly have gears ot slots where it meets the steering gear? Also, what is the purpose of the slip joint? Does it move up and down when you turn the wheel? I'm thinking of some clamping device like van mentioned but don't want to impact the steering at all.
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:39 AM   #864
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Craig F--are you still as amazed as I am that this steering gear swap is turning out to be so easy?

It reminds me of when I first decided there was no reason for my old 93 Dynasty to be a road-wild beast. I began asking questions of the "experts". That got me exactly nowhere. All the answer I got was things that I knew would not work (like changing shocks and tires), or being told, "They all do that. You just need to learn how to drive a motor home."

It is certainly worth respecting those with a lot of experience, but when they tell you something that just doesn't seem right to you, ya gotta go with yer own head.

And like Myron said, his wife can stir him to thinking in a new vein, even if she really doesn't understand the problem he is working on. One thing I learned as a young engineer was to never dismiss what the machine operator tells you the machine is doing when you are troubleshooting it. You may be the designer, and think that what he is telling you just cannot be. But if you dismiss what he tells you, it will likely make you feel foolish in the end and you will end up apologizing to him. <G>

This thread has certainly proven that you have a lot to gain by encouraging folks to contribute their thoughts, even if those folks are not mechanics or engineers. I always thought the steering gear change was possible, and if I'd had a Sheppard, I would have looked into it. But Craig F has certainly made me realize I should have gotten off my duff and at least researched the idea thoroughly. Looks like he may soon be able to take total credit for solving the one handling problem that the whole Monaco universe thought there was no solution for.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread!!
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:36 AM   #865
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Slip joint and splines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crah View Post
Good luck on the arm. Does the u joint assembly have gears ot slots where it meets the steering gear? Also, what is the purpose of the slip joint? Does it move up and down when you turn the wheel? I'm thinking of some clamping device like van mentioned but don't want to impact the steering at all.
Crah, I call the part you are questioning a knuckle and most have splines/slots where they attach to the steering gear input shaft with a bolt to secure them to the shaft. They may be indexed, i.e. not have splines all the way around, and the steering input shaft will have a relief for the bolt to partially engage the shaft.
The slip joint is designed to allow movement of the frame in relationship to the steering column so that it doesn't break the mounting for the steering column tube. Clamping it may cause undue pressure on the lower steering column bearing causing it to wear out or break, or, break the mounting for the column where it mounts to the dash.
If the splines in the slip joint are loose about the only repair I know of is to replace the assembly. Most are a four lobe design with a blue nylon like coating which over a period of time bucking the steering wheel back and forth wears out, especially if it doesn't get lubed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I don't know of any other fix.
Hope that helps.
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:25 PM   #866
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Crah, I call the part you are questioning a knuckle and most have splines/slots where they attach to the steering gear input shaft with a bolt to secure them to the shaft. They may be indexed, i.e. not have splines all the way around, and the steering input shaft will have a relief for the bolt to partially engage the shaft.
The slip joint is designed to allow movement of the frame in relationship to the steering column so that it doesn't break the mounting for the steering column tube. Clamping it may cause undue pressure on the lower steering column bearing causing it to wear out or break, or, break the mounting for the column where it mounts to the dash.
If the splines in the slip joint are loose about the only repair I know of is to replace the assembly. Most are a four lobe design with a blue nylon like coating which over a period of time bucking the steering wheel back and forth wears out, especially if it doesn't get lubed. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I don't know of any other fix.
Hope that helps.
Have a wonderful day.
Thanks for the info. It looks like I need to take it apart and see who makes it and look for a replacement. I wonder if only the bottom side needs replacement or if I need to replace the section above the floor as well.
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Old 07-01-2014, 02:41 PM   #867
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My guess is it's a Spicer part, but your build sheet could give you more info or possibly a part number.
Needs to be replaced as an assembly because you can't tell which part, the upper or lower part, of the slip yoke is worn. Probably some wear on both upper and lower. JMHO
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:49 PM   #868
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WOW this is amazing information to hopefully fix the wondering problem at its source. deSanford
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