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Old 06-01-2012, 10:20 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crah View Post
Jimkate,

I'm wondering how much change to the chassis design happened between you vintage coach and mine. I know that through 2000 through 2010 there was not much change to the road master chassis if any at all. Your vintage probably had the steel house framing though where mine is the cheap aluminum. Do you know your wheelbase? Mine is at 216 inches and my coach bumper to bumper is about 37 ft 7 inches. Spec says 36 1/2 ft long though.
I cannot confirm this, but I was told by a source extremely knowledgeable about the Monaco chassis going all the way back to the early 90's that it has not significantly changed since its very first iteration. This source told me that the frame design was purchased by Monaco from Chrysler, when Chrysler abandoned its plans to produce a transit bus. Since Chrysler NEVER BUILT the bus, it is safe to assume that no chassis engineer looked at it after Monaco began producing it, nor did any chassis engineer have the chance to test a prototype and determine if it had any shortcomings. NASA, Boeing and other aircraft companies have some brilliant engineers who optimize their designs with great attention to detail, but even they don't always get it right the first time. They usually prototype their designs, and then evaluate them to be sure they have not missed something. That never happened to the Roadmaster chassis design.

In summary, there probably have not been any major design changes in the 8-bag Roadmaster chassis since it was first adopted. Perhaps coincidentally, owners have complained about wandering from day one.

Van W. 93 Dynasty 36' pulling one Harley
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:29 AM   #86
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How about TWO Panhard rods?

Humor me, as if I was the “nutty professor”. Suppose I wanted to add another Panhard rod (I don’t) to the front H-frame on my 93 Dynasty 36’. There already is one attached to the H-frame just aft of the axle. Suppose I added one very near the front of the H-frame (can’t do it—no room). Anyone see any reason that cannot be done if there were room there? I cannot remember where (CRS) but I think I’ve seen a large truck application with two rear Panhard rods—one in front of the differential and one ahead of it. Truck had air bag suspension.

Van W. 93 Dynasty 36’ pulling one Harley
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:37 PM   #87
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Humor me, as if I was the “nutty professor”. Suppose I wanted to add another Panhard rod (I don’t) to the front H-frame on my 93 Dynasty 36’. There already is one attached to the H-frame just aft of the axle. Suppose I added one very near the front of the H-frame (can’t do it—no room). Anyone see any reason that cannot be done if there were room there? I cannot remember where (CRS) but I think I’ve seen a large truck application with two rear Panhard rods—one in front of the differential and one ahead of it. Truck had air bag suspension.

Van W. 93 Dynasty 36’ pulling one Harley
Vanwill,

I just spent about 1 hour under the chassis playing around. I've been down there many times, but this is the first time I've really analized how everything works and learned more in that 1 hour than my years of being part of these forums. I will post my findings in a different response. As to your question of an additonal panhard rod, I wouldn't see an issue with it, but if the single one is working fine would the second one be really necessary? (Based on what I saw down there, I think the design should include a second panhard on both axles.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:53 PM   #88
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Maybe the reason there is only 1 is because 2 would cost more then 1. Do you think Source or some other firm would be interested in making a "kit" for wondering motor homes (panhard units)? deSanford
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:55 PM   #89
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Well, as mentioned in my comment to Vanwill, I spent about an hour under the coach exploring the front and rear suspension, and snapped a couple of pictures at the same time. I have to thank all the previous posters that kept this thread alive and the couple of members that thinked outside the box. That really opened up my mind. I've mentioned in different threads that my tires flex more than I think is normal, and when I was doin this test, I was really focusing on the front axle. The other day, I tried the same thing near the back bumper and used a good part of my might to start rocking (tail wagging) the coach to see the reaction. I saw movement all the way down to the front axle. I way only 154 pounds, so I could imagine the push caused by large trucks passing. The movement in the rear axle, I noticed that some of the movement was in the tires, but a lot of the movement was the house wagging. With all these discussions of the panhard rod (I never really even tried to understand the diesel pusher airbag suspension before) until others really started chiming in. If the panhard rod was functioning properly, there should not have been that much movement from the house to the rear axle and even extending all the way to the front axle. I got under the coach and looked for for the panhard rods right away which you can't miss. I've never thought of them before. Only thought on the suspension prior was some airbags and shocks. The front panhard bar is immediately behind the front axle, and the rear panhard bar is right above the rear axle (for my chassis). I checked the bolts and low and behold my back panhard had the bolt freespinning. It looked tight and the panhard itself felt tight if you just grabbed it. But being a small guy, I grabbed the panhard and leveraged my legs against the underside of the house frame and there was a tiny bit of play. It's an 1-1/2 bolt/nut, and my socket set only goes up to 1-1/4 inch so I will have to tighten it tomorrow. Before I tighten it, I will remove the bolt and see what type of material is used for a bushing and check for wear. Sadly, this may not answer my wandering problems though. I can hope, but I think there is more to the story. The H frame is pretty large, and extends pretty far beyond the axle on both sides. These links mentioned previously that tie the H frame to the house (I only found 2 per axle). The front H frame had two links in the very front, and then the panhard near the front axle-slightly back. The H frame continues towards the back of the coach and only is attached at the rear with airbags and shocks. Perhaps there should be another Panhards at this end, or the original panhard should have been mounted further back???? The rear configuration was just he opposite. The 2 links were at the end of the H frame behind the rear axle. I will post some pictures shortly.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:06 PM   #90
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Maybe the reason there is only 1 is because 2 would cost more then 1. Do you think Source or some other firm would be interested in making a "kit" for wondering motor homes (panhard units)? deSanford
I think Vanwill has first dibs on that LOL.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:22 PM   #91
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While I'm trying to upload some photos, I think a good test for someone with wander, or tail wagging the dog symptoms, is to get to the very rear of the coach and push back and forth to see what type of movement one is getting. Really pay attention to the source of the movement and look all the way to the front of the coach to see what type of reaction is happening up there. It would really help out if you have a helper of course. It would have been nice if I could see the movements happening below, but I don't have a helper around. What I have found so far may not be answers to everyone else's problems, but it could be a possibility. (I'm not even sure if the correction I will make will make a difference). Mechanically, it should.
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Old 06-01-2012, 05:53 PM   #92
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Ok here are some pictures below. There are a little crude and don't show the complete H frame, as the H frame has a little sub frame attached to it that extends to the 2 links that attach to the house. Hard to explain the complete layout.

Front Panhard Rod Overall. It's the piece right in the middle of the picture spanning left to right. The gold piece is my sway bar.


Front Link on Driver's side. It's hard to get your location straight, but I'm facing the driver's side storage compartment under the window.


Driver's Side rear Panhard Bar. This is the one I found the bolt freespinning and the bar had a little play in it.


Passenger Side Rear Panhard Bar
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Old 06-01-2012, 07:45 PM   #93
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Inside the ends of the panhard bar are two piece urethane bushings which deteriorate with age. Monaco has a much better design 1 piece replacement bushing. Replacing the bushings in the panhard bar and the trailing links (they are the same bushings in all) will stop any wandering you have. They worked on my 1998 Dynasty.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:19 PM   #94
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the second set of Panhard bars I was suggesting should run longitudinally not laterally as the current bars run. There would be no real benefit to two bars in the same direction if the first one was operating properly.
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Old 06-01-2012, 09:50 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamboree89
Inside the ends of the panhard bar are two piece urethane bushings which deteriorate with age. Monaco has a much better design 1 piece replacement bushing. Replacing the bushings in the panhard bar and the trailing links (they are the same bushings in all) will stop any wandering you have. They worked on my 1998 Dynasty.
Interesting. Did you order from monaco directly? Is there a special tool required to replaced them?
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:01 PM   #96
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I can say the trailing arms on the rear end will make the need for a longitudinally mounted panard bar NOT needed. Though the trailing arm bushings do need to be tight and not sloppy or rear end housing is going to shift for and after....creating a "wandering" sensation when driving.

With all of the alignments that have been performed by now...I would think at least 1 of the techs did a proper check and diagnosis of ALL suspension moving attachment points...after all 1 can not do any type of proper alignment if the components are loose fitting and able to move in directions they are not designed to move. I know every alignment I have done(literally hundreds) every vehicle was checked for anything loose on the suspension before a wrench was ever used
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:04 PM   #97
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After everything has been said..........Thanks crah for the pictures. I now know what a "panhard bar" is. deSanford
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:07 PM   #98
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crah
Getting back to post #66 - My (4) front trailing arms are 58" and (4)rears are 30 1/2".

I just took some pictures, so you can see what another Roadmaster chassis looks likes. Now that you have been under yours, they will probably make sense to you.

The H frame is bolted to the front axle and is welded the rear axle housing. Portions of the Panhard bar, as well as the upper and lower trailing arms are visable.

Front


Another front


Rear
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