Wandering, sway bars, alignment, ride height, oh my!!

[deSanford]

Nice reads guys and u-tube Harry. Link on de Sanford

[Papa_Jim]

Great work guys!



Jim

[nodine]

Originally Posted by mhughes

Attached are the installation images.

Clearances are pretty tight due to the larger jack cylinder but it all clears the H-Frame by a minimum of 1/8"

Since I had to remove a fair amount of material from the bolt head on the Heim joints I notched the mounting plate to allow the use of a thin jam nut on the back side. This allowed me to reduce the torque of the bolt substantially without risk that it might come lose.

The one image of the mounting plate is turned sideways. I couldn't figure out how to flip it but you get the idea.

Now, on the rear Watts-Linkage. The mount is completed and clamps to the chassis with ubolts. The arms will be flat bar instead of tubing since there is slightly less than 1" clearance between the chassis and H-Frame.

Looks like it is going to work out just dandy.

Very nice job Mike. We just got home yesterday from a 4500 mile trip with the Watts link. I can truly say the coach drives like a different motorhome. When the speed limit was 75 I would routinely set the cruise at 72 and if the speed limit was 70, to 70. While cruising along at that speed many times I would drive with one hand and hold a cup of coffee in the other. Granted the fuel economy was not so good at that speed. Between the higher average speed, the Bio-Diesel, the shift to winter blend, and my leaking exhaust manifold, we were still averaging 7.4 MPG.

Bob

[nodine]

Originally Posted by Happycarz

Attached are some of the parts that make up the watts link, as originally designed by Bob Nodine and enhanced by Vanwill. What a team!







Pivot installed:


Another angle - a very close fit:


The tie rods and tie rod mounts are similar to Mike's

Harry,

Those are fantastic photos. I need to take some lessens from you on taking photos under the coach. Very nice. Glad you are happy with the Watts link. Our coaches are sisters when it comes to handing mods, except I do not have the TRW box and do have a TruCenter. I hope to do the TRW swap by spring. I ordered the PRXB PacBrake and it is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. You, Walt, and Van have me running scared about broken exhaust manifold bolts and Van has offered to let me fix the exhaust leak at his place. That way if I have trouble there will be a master machinist on hand to help me. Not only does Van know how to get the broken bolts out of the head, if the manifold needs to be faced he can do that.

By the way, after our over 4000 miles with the close tolerance of the Watts link to the H frame, we never noticed any problems with interference.

Bob

[Happycarz]

Bob, I took those picture and the video with my iPhone 5.

Once you get the exhaust manifold taken care of, new PacBrake on and TRW installed, you will have to take another long road test. I'm just helping you rationalize your next trip! Just keep south unless you want to test ABS and Traction Control.

The rear structure of my coach is suitable to install a watts link at the front of the H frame. The Panhard bar is toward the rear, maybe 4' from the front. The Camelot, very close to the Diplomat, has I-beams welded to the underside of the rear frame rails. Next time you crawl under yours, would you look at the frame rails and H frame? I see another project in the works.

I wish I was closer than 2200 mile to Van's, or I would be back at his "resort and service center." (For you that don't know Van, he is a true gentleman and a great host, especially allowing us to use his facilities at his house. So, no, his resort and campground will not show up when searching for either.)

[deSanford]

From the pictures it looks like the bracket holding on to the H beam is threaded to accept the bolts instead of using nuts. Is that correct? Mike your cylinder bracket looks cool especially with those curvy curves. de Sanford

[mhughes]

deSanford,

Yes, they are threaded. No room for nuts near the Heim joint.

Thanks for the compliment on the mount.

[Vanwill]

Mike's application was challenging. He had the least room of any coach I've seen, and he still did a great job. We are all looking forward to his driving impressions.

And I am really looking forward to Mike's implementation of the first Watts link on a rear H-frame. I have not looked again at that possibility on my coach since it first dawned on me to "invert" the linkage. Without the inversion, I just remember it had the same problem as the front--finding a place to anchor the links to the coach frame always involved difficult, out-of-position welding.

Mike has also generously offered to help anyone near him with their installation and any problems. I think he will enjoy helping you guys as much as I have.

Good job, Mike!!

[Happycarz]

Mike, I completely missed your comment about installing a rear watts link. My bad. You are on top of it, already. I assume it will be to the front, as to be out of the way of the driveshaft. I'm anxious to see the outcome.

[rmcb]

Van,

I have a few questions about the watts link you made up for Harry, and others, if you don't mind.

1. Are the links made of solid bar (CRS) or tubing?

2. Did you thin the heads of the bolts for clearance? - pic looks like it.

3. It looks like the pivot arm stud is a bolt with head cut off and pressed/welded in from the back side of the pivot mounting bracket. Have you considered using a wheel stud instead of a bolt? Probably harder than necessary.

4. Did you just machine the pivot arm hole/bushing for a smooth running fit? Fitting a caged bearing would probably be more elaborate than necessary. (Or as they say in engineering school, better is the enemy of good enough).

5. Looks like a PFTE or teflon washer behind the bell-crank. Is that correct?

6. Did you stick to the dimensions in Bob's drawing for the bell-crank and links? I wonder whether there is any particular best practice (ie. ratio of bell-crank length to link length) or if the size you used for the bell-crank just worked out to be about right?

7. Have you ever seen any problems running the Heim joints open and dry? I got some seals for the joints on my rear cross braces but haven't put them on yet. I'm still considering whether I should grease them up and put the seals on, or just let them go as is and then replace them with sealed units if these wear out. Hmmmmm......

Thanks Van. Looking forward to meeting you at Q this year if you can make it.

Regards,

Roy

[rmcb]

Mike,
I sent you a PM. Just curious about lessons learned and things you would have done differently. Thanks.

Roy

[mhughes]

Van
Thank you for the kind words.

Roy
Sorry, didn't get your PM.

If I were to do it again I would use greasable steering rod ends and lengthen the pivot arm by 3" and the clamps by 1 1/2". I followed Bobs drawings for the arm and mount but due to limited space there were some challenges.

By lengthening those I wouldn't need to trim the Heim joint bolt heads to clear the H-Frame.

I too have the seals for the Heim joints and was wondering whether or not to add some grease. Not sure what it might do to the Kevlar in the joint.

Since you asked Van about the pivot here are some details on mine.

For the mount I used a 3/4" grade 8 bolt pressed into the plate and welded from the back side. For the pivot I used a .125" wall sleeve over the bolt and a 1" ID brass bushing pressed into the arm. Then added .125" brass thrust washers on each side. To secure it I used a low profile 3/4" lock nut with a 3/4" SAE washer.

Ideal would have been opposing tapered roller bearings in the pivot arm but there just isn't room for it. Wish there was.

Van, Happycarz
I have the rear Watts-Link installed. Used the same components as the front with the exception of the angle iron brackets and the rods. I'll be removing it for finish welding and painting this week. It is mounted to the 3" vertical tubes at the front of the H-Frame. Fit surprisingly well. I wish there was more distance from the P-Rod but it is what it is. I'll post pic's.

I've never camped at Q but have attended the show. I was thinking it would be nice to spend a few days with the group if there is room.

[Happycarz]

This is the pivot bushing Van made. Notice the scribe mark for accepting grease.

[rmcb]

Thanks Mike,
Thanks for the tips.
In my reading, it appears that the longer the pivot arm, the more the vertical motion stays in the near straight section of the "s" shaped path subscribed by the pivot point. Of course, with the pivot point fixed as in our application, the outboard ends of the links would subscribe the "s" path. It would therefore seem to me that a longer pivot arm would be better. I'm not sure if the difference in our application would make much difference though, given our suspension travel. Hmmmmmmm. I may construct some templates of different pivot arm lengths to see what the actual difference would be.
Hope you follow my description.
Regards,
Roy