Cracked Black Tank Saga – Question 1: Underbelly Removal

[rockintom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Walker Workshop, most likely movement did cause the crack. The two 3" outlets (one on each tank) supports the drain plumbing containing the 1-1/2" and 3" valves. The gray water tank outlet is on a 90 degree angle from the black water tank. There has never been any other support for the plumbing. I think the simple movement of the plumbing by pulling and pushing the valve handles caused the crack. The valves work easy enough. But, I'm not always easy.

Bo, I think work is not noticing that you have a Winnebago MH and not an Excel 5th wheel. This is the Excel Forum and he may have not noticed that. Excels have a "manifold" that connects the drains of the grey and black tank together to exit out the coach in one outlet and that manifold is supported by a doubled strapped that retains the exit pipe to the frame. rockin'

[Bo Walker]

Thanks Rock, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was posting to the wrong forum. I need to go back to school on ir2 forum usage. Let me just reply to your information and I'll be gone.
My plumbing set up is as you explained except it doesn't have a strap. The tanks are perhaps closer.
Thank you for your tolerance. I'm a slow learner. But, I'll try harder.

[Workshop]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockintom Bo, I think work is not noticing that you have a Winnebago MH and not an Excel 5th wheel. This is the Excel Forum and he may have not noticed that. Excels have a "manifold" that connects the drains of the grey and black tank together to exit out the coach in one outlet and that manifold is supported by a doubled strapped that retains the exit pipe to the frame. rockin'

Bo, I don't think Rockin' was referring to you posting on the Excel forum about your tank and repair....but that I might not have noticed that you have a motorhome when I responded about the strapping/hangers and the fact that they would be different. I will be turning 6? something this month and he assumed I don't use my glasses to read.

I looked at photos of my waste system last night. Didn't see a strap or hanger anywhere in the piping system/runs. The tanks are hung with banding. On my 2001, they run side to side...on mid years to current, they run front to back. The only other place there is a strap/band is where Rockin' mentioned, at the outlet of the system and it is strapped to the frame. It does sit on insulation which does provide some support

As someone who works on S & B, the thought of having waste or any piping made of PVC/ABS running through air...and not having it supported is not code and will fail over time. With the failure of tank straps on the Excels and being supported by the tank's rim flanges has resulted in cracks below the flange at the top of the tanks. With the movement of the system components when the straps fail...I'm surprised there hasn't been problems with the outlets also.

But maybe it's the flexability built within the system by not having a firm mounting that allows the system to remain 'leak free' as well as it does after running down the road.

When working on S & B, when a component fails where two items ar jointed...its because the fasteners fail/not installed correctly or because of movement in the joint. I guess I always look for movement or a cause.


workhorse

[rockintom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Walker Thanks Rock, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was posting to the wrong forum. I need to go back to school on ir2 forum usage. Let me just reply to your information and I'll be gone. My plumbing set up is as you explained except it doesn't have a strap. The tanks are perhaps closer. Thank you for your tolerance. I'm a slow learner. But, I'll try harder.

Bo,
work is right.....I meant no harm on you coming here and posting. My point was to let work know your had a Winne!! Come back any time....if nothing more, cheap entertainment!!! rockin'

[Bo Walker]

Hay guys, I'm not upset at all by anything said. I do appreciate all feedback and information. Sometimes my words or wordings come off stronger than I realize. I enjoy reading the different post on the forum, makes me think we all are real people. I am eager to help an rver if I can.
Please inform and correct me anytime. It's my benefit. I'm still learning. I'm only 65. Ha ha lol

[KU9L]

I thought we'd update everyone since it has been a while & we originally added a hijacking post here about our gray water tank leak that we discovered in early August. I cannot merely just make an update without recounting most all of the whole story in all of its chapters, twists, & turns! I will leave out most of the names as I wish no ill will & venting some of our frustrations here just relates to the fact we haven't had an understanding ear to talk with or confide with for nearly five months now outside or our former IL Excel dealer & Peterson Industries, Inc.

We join our saga during our last factory service visit in May, 2011. There our bedroom slide floor was replaced along with several other appreciated repairs. One item not repaired was the electric screw drive for our '09 33RSE RT, it was out of stock due to it being about a foot bigger than what the largest Winslow drive currently uses (according to the service tech). The plan was to have our dealer replace it under warranty when we got back to Illinois in a couple weeks.

We beat a path to Illinois where upon the dealer informed us they were busy with spring service check ups on the several hundred coaches they store. No problem I thought, we parked on the family farm we inherited in 2009 upon which I had installed a 50-amp outlet & used a 25 gallon blue boy to empty our tanks about 250 feet into the farm's septic tank. The blue boy was not a problem as we used the farmhouse for laundry & showers, mostly sleeping in our 5W, one of my brother's lived in the farmhouse.

I had put in over 3400 hours of labor cleaning up the farm since 2009, nearly as much as Dan my little brother had. Everything from farm junk (old tractors, wagons, equip, etc), tree trimming, old farmer dumps, farmhouse repairs, re-wiring, re-plumbing, etc. had kept us more than busy getting it ready for sale. The place was not large enough to earn a living, yet was a burden in taxes since it was in prime hunting & logging country too remote for a decent commute to a decent paying job. It was tough taking a break from workamping to clean up the farm, I nearly emptied my 401K while doing it since I still had to pay all of my bills & truck payments, etc.

After getting few lookers over three years, it was nice to have a family come through with their realtor ... then nothing for a month or so until they made a second visit after a deal fell through on a smaller property. This time they stated they wanted the place as a hunting property and asked if our 5W was for sale? I asked why? They wanted a place for friends to stay while visiting & said they'd even extend the sewer line over to the RV site. I told them to make us an offer on both ... the thought first occurred to us that we could afford our new WILD CARGO after all! First we'd have to finish our warranty repair of course!

Weeks of intense negotiating followed, but eventually we settled on a decent price for both farm & our 33RSE RT ... We couldn't wait to call Bryan to warn him about the new 41RLE we wanted!!!! A quick call to our IL dealer netted an appointment in a few weeks at the first opening. We thought COOL, we could be in our new 41RLE as the private sale price on our 33RSE RT was much hirer than any dealer would give us.

Well, time almost was here to go get our electric slide screw drive replaced. Then a day before we were going to make the 3 hour drive the dealer parts manager called to say the parts had not come, they wanted us to call Peterson. Okay, no problem, I called and they'd be sent right out ... Only a ten day delay. Hmmmm, time came & went, not parts. Another call, they said our dealer was not a dealer anymore, the economy left him with too many SOB units to order any more Excels. I waited & waited, called & left a few voicemails. In the mean time our buyer brought over a check for $40K for our Excel. I started showing him the systems and how the slides worked, Sheila came running in to say water was pouring out of the bottom of our coach. It was apparent we had a new gray water leak, argh! We had always emptied our tanks before each would fill up our 25G blue boy, but I was a couple days behind do to having to pick up a tractor out of town, so the tank was nearly full. We never travel with any liquids except for 10-15G in our FW tank. I called our dealer the next day to ask what we needed to do.

I got a voicemail back, they were searching for another dealer to do the warranty repairs. Finally got a voicemail from service, they told me to call Jack directly. Jack said that dealer had always done good work so they'd let me use him for the repairs. Great!!!! Another two weeks came and went, still no parts, Argh!!!!!!! I called Peterson to find out Jack hadn't communicated with the service staff, no parts were sent out, no communication that it was okay to use the former dealer. After a few nail biting moments, a okay was given to send the parts ... This time I asked for a tracking number as we were nearing the initial closing date of the farm and our buyer was anxious to go on a long trip with their new Excel ... But I was waiting for the title from our Credit Union (was paid off, they had forgotten to send it to us!). Argh, a weld broke on our 33RSE RT steps & our Shurflo fan blows a motor & circuit board all in the same day .... Does the universe know I am stressed out!!! We were just a couple weeks away from our two year warranty expiring, I felt like I was going to expire myself! Talk about feeling every emotion possible. Then service day approaches!!!!

We pulled out of the farm a day ahead of time to navigate the ten miles of dirt roads out to the highway, stopping at a local KOA for the night. Then dropped of our sold Excel at the old IL dealer while still waiting for the title. Then we headed off to visit our son for 4 days in Elgin. After two short days he called back to say repairs were done ... Huh? How did he repair or replace the gray tank that fast? I called him, but should have stayed in bed!!!!! He fixed our Shurflo fan by replacing motor & circuit board I had ordered and welded the stairs (after accusing of being fat & stepping on the steps wrong), but did not replace the gray tank!!! Why?, I asked!!! He said I had overfilled that tank too many times & it was my fault it broke. I told him it was filled full once or twice, but the valve was always open except when closing it to fill the blue boy with the black tank ... But he real reason he didn't order a new gray water tank was that he discovered the big slides needed their floors replaced also, therefore he referred us back to Peterson. I called Jack right away, but they couldn't get us in for emergency repairs in October or November, not until Dec 5th!!!! Our warranty expired Oct 20th!!!

At that point it became apparent that the sale of our 33RSE RT wasn't going to happen, our buyer had vacation time right after the farm closing and suddenly got cold feet about the check they gave us!!! I begged & pleaded Jack to get us in early through either a suddenly cancellation or unexpected opening either at the service center or factory. He said he would see what he could do, but Dec 5th the soonest he could get us in.

We took the uncashed check back to our buyers the day the title hit our mailbox. We were optimistic that Jack was going to get us in and we kept leaving him voicemails updating our status. As the closing of the farm sale neared, we moved to a nearby city park were it was only $16/night. The RV park was abandoned except for us, we had 50-amp power, but the water had been shut off for the season. We emptied our tanks every three days into our blue boy on warmer days when it was above freezing. There were no full hook ups at this park, no other close RV parks.

Closing on the farm finally happened and still no call from Jack, we left him another voicemail pleading for instructions. Our buyer bought a used SOB coach to go on vacation, which was also a hunting trip for him. We hung around E. Iowa for a few weeks waiting for Jack's call, but heard nothing back. We were in trouble two ways!!!! First we couldn't order a new 41RLE until we sold or traded in our 33RSE RT. Second, we were being kept from our winter workamping jobs in the FL Keys that was to give us income. Instead we were pending the proceeds from the farm as living expenses which was rapidly cutting into our 1/3rd of the farm. If we didn't get repairs soon, trading in our Excel wouldn't leave us enough funds to order our 41RLE.

Finally we approached an active Excel dealer about a trade-in, but the wind was knocked out of our sails when we we're only offered as a trade-in about 60% of what our private buyer did. This, combined with not workamping right now dealt a final blow to our plans for a new 41 RLE!!! Our employer said they hold our workamping jobs until Christmas, but seasonal minimum wages was never going to get us a loan to make up the difference. We'd never want a loan anyway without a real job to follow it up.

Anyway, things started to get real cold at the city park in E Iowa, the local cop kept checking us out as he was not used to anybody but homeless folks staying there this far into the cold season. So we called Jack again, this time a couple weeks before Thanksgiving to check up on how he was trying to get us in early. He didn't even remember us and said there was no appointment written down for us!!!!!!!! Argh!!! I felt like going totally ballistic, but what were we to do???? I rehashed the problem completely about three times over, explaining about the IL dealer being a non-dealer and a dealer again and so on. Slowly but surely a tiny light bulb turned on, but he said we never confirmed we were coming so no appointment was ever made!!!!!!! By now I was levitating about 3 feet off of the ground, but did everything in my power to remain calm & not to put a gun to my head!!!! I told him we had our total lives on hold since August and had to get into service ASAP before we froze to death waiting for some appointment, ANY appointment!!!!! I told him we were going broke having to wait for that service and needed to get into service ASAP as we originally talked about, that we needed to get to our winter jobs as we hadn't had a paying job since April!!! His only response was it was our responsibility to pay for camp fees .... Duh, I knew that .... But who's responsibility was it to write down our appointment??????? Believe it or not, he still had the Dec 5th open, so he said he wrote it down. This time I hope he really did! He also recommended we come stay at the Home on the Range campground in Athol, KS 6 miles down the road. We located a break in the rain/wind/holiday shoppers & headed for Athol, KS.

So we have been here for almost a week now, yesterday had 60mph winds & last night 17 degrees! The campground was meant for wind farm workers, built in a field with a million sand burs & lots of dirt (no gravel). It does have 16 sites, all 50-amp with water & sewer ... & fiberoptic Internet! It looks like we were the second RV to camp here, have only sunk in a few inches with wheels & jacks onto our big Lego blocks. It isn't a bad place, just real lonely!!!!

I screwed up big time, my TV signal quit two weeks ago, the coax antenna on our Winegard head was never waterproofed, it rotted with water intrusion. I mistakenly thought there was both connector ends on the roof, didn't know it was spliced inside the roof. In attempt to snake in a new piece my splice broke, now we are screwed without TV another week and probably have to put Peterson at considerable pain to snake another cable in for us ... However, WHY didn't the original RG-6 connector get waterproofed like all exposed hardware should???? It is too cold to work on it outside any more now with it getting down to 15-20 deg every night away!

As I said, I mean no ill will against anyone here, there, or anywhere. But after our Dec 5 servicing we are taking our 33RSE RT to consignment sale in Morarity, NM so Kay can sell it for us. It is time to quit full-timing and buy a small cabin, we hear we are only two years away from grand kids anyway. Maybe some day into the future we can build our 41RLE when the grand kids want to take their toys to the ATV park ...

Thanks for letting us recall our recent journey & travels. We have had fun reading all of the RV2 forums the past 5 years.

Dave & Sheila Knapp


PS- I part with an IPad photo out our window of a view we have of our campground tonight ...

[rockintom]

Dave, So sorry to hear all your woes. Seems like it's always something with an RV, no matter how new or old. I guess I'm lucky as I do most of my own repairs both warranty and otherwise. I can't imagine waiting to get into a dealer for most repairs. I don't think my bride would handle that very well. I will say overall the Peterson team has been good to work with on getting me parts and assisting with repairs. I sure hope things start going better for you, as it sounds like you've had your fair share of problems. Best of luck, and hang in there, Dave. rockin'

[KU9L]

Tom,

I enjoy doing a lot of my own maintenance & repairs too. However, without problems we can never get better for the next time. I learned to never assume a coach that sat on the dealer's lot was going to be perfect, especially when it was next to a busy highway with snowplows spraying calcium chloride on it all winter, the vapor drift does incredible things to powder coated frames & chromed hardware.

The coach wasn't level as most parking lots aren't and the flaw in the top outside edges in the metal 90 deg angle seams was poking through the Eternabond. It took a trip to P.I. (where they also "forgot my appointment") in May 2010 & also our Illinois dealer that September to resolve how the top outer corners were trimmed & sealed from the original factory job that was less than stellar quality.

By then no doubt water had seeped down through the inside walls and into the floor area for almost two years. Once I became conscious of the problem I worked on a solution, but the effects take a long while to manifest themselves. When we had our bedroom slide floor replaced this last May I really wanted them to replace the other two as well, but those effects were seemingly delayed from the bedroom floor problem as the soft spots in the two big slides manifested 2-3 months later. It wasn't because they suddenly rotted out in 2-3 months, the presence of water is a funny thing in taking its time.

Before we left P.I. In May, we made sure all of the seams we're caulked up ... But moving a thousand miles from there & back, temperature changes from 15 deg to 102 deg since May, and a lot of wind & rain take its toll on those seams. Right now there are quite a few I'd love to touch up, but it is 15 deg F out right now & I don't think it will be warm enough in the shadows to do it any time this week. Normally we do it all first thing when we get to FL, a nice caulk scraper, a roll of painters tape, & it looks like a professional did it. Funny thing, the areas of caulk covered over by our half body paint have never loosened up yet like the unpainted sections. Personally I like the way one of the SOB truck camper manufacturers do it, the caulk is a second or third layer of protection instead of the primary seam cover as a single point of failure. I say this because while workamping I see thousands of coaches & also I work on the SOB rental units at resorts. It seems 95% or more rely on their dealer's for recaulking of seams, which happens once a year at best.

Now if I talk about all of the things that didn't go wrong with this coach it will be a very long list, but as a former engineer & husband of almost 27 years I am trained to look for problems before they will crash a plane!!! Indeed Sheila has not been a happy camper since August and should be down in the FL Keys smiling working the reservation desk while I am out snaking sewers, indeed we have lost $5K/mo in income & tips because of this ... But we have been through adversity before when he economy tanked for us in 2008, somehow we have always made lemonade out of sour fruit. Her decision to quit full-timing is partially due to future grand kids coming, but also not wanting to sit on the lone prairie out here for several months every couple of years waiting to get into service for an "emergency." We will survive, but our near future excursions will be more like 1-2 week trips gold panning or snow birding in our truck camper. If that breaks we can go live in the cabin for the six month waiting period, etc. One thing about it, you can no longer call me a fair weather camper, we've seen it all this year, rain, snow, 60mph wind, & funnel clouds!

Dave




















We are within 15 miles of the birthplace of the song, Home on the Range ... But haven't seen a single deer or pronghorn out playing yet!!! ;-) Stella, our beagle, did flush out a cottontail a few days ago ... So there is some life here on the prairie!!!

[KU9L]

I forgot to get a photo of the sign. Jack said he recommended we call this place as an alternative to the other fine RV park in town. They also lease the 4 bed cabin to hunters. The truth is the owner's here are some of the nicest people we have met, just wish they had consulted regular RVers before they decided to leave out gravel on the drive-through sites. He said it was so his lawn mower didn't spray gravel. When I asked about sinking in the mud, he said we'd sink down no more than 4" at the worst. He showed me how much the previous feller did just to prove it, lol! -Dave

[Still Working "NOT"]

Dave, go out and drive the creek bottoms early in the morning or towards evening. You'll see the deer then. Just a warning, deer season opens later this week. As for the antelope, they are further west. I can usually find some here around Oakley anythime if I want.

[KU9L]

We were in SC 4 days for the repairs Dec 5-8, then headed south to OK City as an ice storm chased us south. The next morning we got up to discover a huge crack in the upper outside corner of our outside fiberglass wall of our big slide.

We decided to divert over to Kay's RV's near ABQ to drop off our 5er for the additional needed $400 repair.

At least the gray water tank replacement was working well. Turns out that replacing our big slide floor in SC put pressure on the outer wall, causing the outside crack.

We didn't want to wait another four months to get back into the SC repair facility again, so we left our Excel with Kay in ABQ.

We then proceeded to Pueblo to trade in our '08 Chevy flatbed for our new Ford F-350 dually.

The fiberglass repair was going to take a few weeks to schedule & do properly, so we headed to S FL with our other play toys this winter. Unfortunately I can't edit our profile from this iPhone App or I'd have everything updated already, LOL. We are having fun this winter since we aren't workamping, just bopping around to different COE, SP, NP & private campgrounds visiting old friends. It is a lot of fun moving around every week or so when you are only 27.5' long!

David & Sheila Knapp

[Endeavor2BnC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KU9L We were in SC 4 days for the repairs Dec 5-8, then headed south to OK City as an ice storm chased us south. The next morning we got up to discover a huge crack in the upper outside corner of our outside fiberglass wall of our big slide. We decided to divert over to Kay's RV's near ABQ to drop off our 5er for the additional needed $400 repair. At least the gray water tank replacement was working well. Turns out that replacing our big slide floor in SC put pressure on the outer wall, causing the outside crack. We didn't want to wait another four months to get back into the SC repair facility again, so we left our Excel with Kay in ABQ. We then proceeded to Pueblo to trade in our '08 Chevy flatbed for our new Ford F-350 dually. The fiberglass repair was going to take a few weeks to schedule & do properly, so we headed to S FL with our other play toys this winter. Unfortunately I can't edit our profile from this iPhone App or I'd have everything updated already, LOL. We are having fun this winter since we aren't workamping, just bopping around to different COE, SP, NP & private campgrounds visiting old friends. It is a lot of fun moving around every week or so when you are only 27.5' long! David & Sheila Knapp

We're in Cudjoe Key now. I'll send a PM with our contact info. We'd love to meet up & share some stories.
Tim