Safe to tow Excel 36' with 1-ton truck?

[Bob Wilson]

Some variant of this question seems to come regularly, and it's a pretty important issue to folks considering their first Excel ... I know I asked it of my dealer before purchase.

In answering this question, it's important to separate fact from opinion ... but my guess is that most of what will likely follow is opinion.

We can talk about manufacturer payload capacities and gross combined vehicle weight ratings (facts), but we really don't have any hard data on the safety impact of exceeding these ratings by 100 lbs, 1,000 lbs or 3,000 lbs.

I think most would agree that:

- a small car without air bags is safer than a motorcycle;
- a small car with airbags is safer than a small car without;
- a large car with airbags is safer than a small car with airbags; and,
- a large car with airbags will probably lose in a collision with a large SUV or truck.

So, which of the above vehicles is unsafe? All are legal. All have their own following. Point is, different folks have different risk tolerances, and safety comes in degrees.

[Bob Wilson]

Some variant of this question seems to come regularly, and it's a pretty important issue to folks considering their first Excel ... I know I asked it of my dealer before purchase.

In answering this question, it's important to separate fact from opinion ... but my guess is that most of what will likely follow is opinion.

We can talk about manufacturer payload capacities and gross combined vehicle weight ratings (facts), but we really don't have any hard data on the safety impact of exceeding these ratings by 100 lbs, 1,000 lbs or 3,000 lbs.

I think most would agree that:

- a small car without air bags is safer than a motorcycle;
- a small car with airbags is safer than a small car without;
- a large car with airbags is safer than a small car with airbags; and,
- a large car with airbags will probably lose in a collision with a large SUV or truck.

So, which of the above vehicles is unsafe? All are legal. All have their own following. Point is, different folks have different risk tolerances, and safety comes in degrees.

[D and J]

I don't want to sound like a weight cop, really I don't. But I have found that most dealers don't care what you tow with, as long as they are making a sale. Sure, all Excels can be towed with a one ton dually, but they are all delivered empty.

My F350 with tow boss towed my FSE33 (35 foot) OK, but when we started to really fill it up, one trip over the Skyline Drive in Virginia told my "b utt meter" I needed more truck.

Again, I'm not a weight cop, everyone needs to know their limits.

I just want all us Excel owners to be safe

Doug

Moved from the Boondocking discussion.
John

[Bob Wilson]

This is a great post Doug. While I don't have the exact numbers, my guess is that your Excel was comfortably under the limits of the F350 with TowBoss ... and yet it really didn't matter if you felt you needed more truck.

What's really important is feeling in control of the vehicle ... knowing you have reserve capacity to deal with unexpected issues.

I have to admit that I grew up driving overloaded trucks on a large corporate farm. I have 100s of thousands of miles driving class 5 thru class 8 trucks, hauling vans, flats and tankers, singles, doubles and triples. And I've managed trucking fleet operations.

So, I'm very comfortable reading the terrain, traffic, road signs, brakes, maps, vehicle sounds, and then adjusting my speed to maintain a safety margin. Most folks don't have this experience ... so as you say, it's very important to know our limits.

Bob

[ChiefJohn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my guess is that your Excel was comfortably under the limits of the F350 with TowBoss ... and yet it really didn't matter if you felt you needed more truck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great point Bob! My F350 was "comfortably under the limits" but I was not satisfied with the overall performance of the truck or the margin of safety provided. As others have learned, it's not necessarily "can I tow" but "should I tow" the larger and heavier RVs with with a 1-ton truck. "Life is short and death is long" -- unfortunately, hindsight may come too late. Only you can make that decision.

We would have saved $$$$ by going the larger TV route from the start. Virgil (MakinSmoke) sums up the bigger is better issue with the the name of his TV, "Overkill".

[Dutch_man39]

Well, there's no way I want to own an HDT and from what I have seen MDT's are too expensive. So, if it's not safe to tow an Excel with a properly equipped 1-ton truck then I guess we won't be buying an Excel.

I always planned to buy a DRW 1-ton with a diesel engine and a 5th wheel with disc brakes because I understand the value of safety. We like two Excel Classic floorplans: 33RKE and 33TKE. While I don't expect to load either one of these to the GVWR of 17,500 lbs, I would imagine we would be right at or over 16,000 lbs loaded as fulltimers.

I understand that PI builds an excellent 5th wheel, but don't understand why they have to be so heavy. Other brands of similar quality, NuWa and Carriage Cameo for example, come in with lower overall weights than Excel.

More discussion would be appreciated so we can make an intelligent decision on what to buy.

Bill

[Bob Wilson]

I agree John ... it is always safer to tow far below the capacity of the truck ... the safety margin is much greater, and the feeling of control makes for less stress and more enjoyable towing.

That said, many folks would be scared to death to drive a class 8 truck; and other folks thinking about their first Excel may already have a 1 ton truck that they used for pulling their previous rig, and these folks need to know what they can expect if they try to tow one of the large Excels with the same truck.

As you know from my previous post, it would be no sweat for me to step up to a larger truck; but, I had a couple other criteria:

1) since I'm a fulltimer and still working as a consultant, I fly around the country from where ever I happen to be at the time ... so I need to park my truck at airports. A 1 ton fits in parking garages.

2) wanted a rig that the wife would feel comfortable driving to grocery stores and craft stores.

3) wanted a 4x4 since we spend time in snowy areas of the country ... to be with family during the holidays.

[Bob Wilson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, there's no way I want to own an HDT and from what I have seen MDT's are too expensive. So, if it's not safe to tow an Excel with a properly equipped 1-ton truck then I guess we won't be buying an Excel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post Bill. I've towed a 36RDO with a 1 ton Dodge dually for 45,000 to 50,000 miles with no real problem; but I'm well aware that I'm outside the envelope set by the manufacturer.

A few key points:

1) There are no published standards that I'm aware of for calculating GVWR and GCWR ... each manufacturer has their own process, which they seem to guard.

2) Included in the process of setting the GVWR and GCWR are: a) safety, b) performance, c) starting from a stop on a grade, and d) warranty coverage.

3) Check the tow ratings for a 1 ton truck with 3.73 gears versus 4:10 gears and you'll see that the 4.10 is rated higher ... clearly the brakes are no better between the vehicles, so stopping power isn't the reason for the change in rating.

4) If you exceed the manufacturers ratings, you can expect a higher rate of component failure (transmission is a common weak point) that may not be covered under warranty.

5) While no upgrades that you'd perform to your truck will change the factory ratings, they will improve certain areas of performance ... you can add 19.5 tires for instance, to gain load carrying capacity, and air helper springs to improve the suspension control. I highly recommend updates like this if using a 1 ton. But, remember that the weakest link always determines the overall safety margin.

[D and J]

My F350 was one with a shortbed dually (you don't see many dually's with a 6.5' bed) so this could have been some of my problem (shorter wheelbase) it had 4.30 gears so it was rated for 26K combined. It weighed about 8K loaded (I added a transferflo tank cause the stock 6.5 bed only has a 29 gallon tank) It was fine for weekend or week long travel, but we are now loaded for full time use.

As far as overloaded towing, to me there is a huge difference between hauling overloaded farm equipment, and hauling my "precious cargo" of my family and belongings.

In the past, I have driven tractor trailers 48 and 53' boxes. I also have driven "stagecoaches" (those fancy buses that are rented by music stars and politicians. I think i can safely say I can drive anything down the highway. But I also feel strongly that knowing your limits and abilities means nothing when dealing with other's stupidity on the highway. (other's is not limited to humans, deer are a big problem in my area of northwest NJ)

As far as costs, I wanted to haul with a larger truck for fulltiming, and my wife has driven an International 4400, and a freightliner M2, she just wasn't comfortable hitching and un hitching this size rig, so we got a F550 with a hauler bed. (I needed more space for tools and generators than a pick up offered)

We are still breaking in the 550, but we are already getting a tiny bit better mileage with it, than we did with our 350 (550 has 4.88 gears) we paid less money for it than we would have paid for one of those new loaded F450 superduty's (plus I have over 45' of lockable storage with my hauler bed)

For weekend use, and some weeklong vacations I would use a 1 ton for an excel 36 model, but not for fulltime use.

A few weeks ago, I saw an old couple (in their 80's??) pulling a Newmar 40 footer with a F250. The 250 looked like it was bending in half between the bed and the cab, and they were just trucking down the NY thruway without a care in the world. If interviewed, I'm sure he would have told me "it pulls just fine" but there is no way it can stop fine!

Also, (Dutchman) MDT's and HDT's are very cost effective, unless you "need" to buy a new sportchassis off the lot. You just need to do a good search through truckpaper or horse trailer world's classified adds if you want find a great deal on a used one.

[Bob Wilson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As far as overloaded towing, to me there is a huge difference between hauling overloaded farm equipment, and hauling my "precious cargo" of my family and belongings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree completely Doug. My point wasn't to equate the two, but rather to show my bias to the readers of this thread.

Bob

[LindaH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dutch_man39:
I always planned to buy a DRW 1-ton with a diesel engine and a 5th wheel with disc brakes because I understand the value of safety. We like two Excel Classic floorplans: 33RKE and 33TKE. While I don't expect to load either one of these to the GVWR of 17,500 lbs, I would imagine we would be right at or over 16,000 lbs loaded as fulltimers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're going to be fulltimers, don't be too sure you won't fill the 5er up to it's 17,500# GVWR...most likely you will!

You might look at the F-350 with the Tow Boss option. It has a much larger GCWR (and I think GVWR) than most *regular* 1-ton trucks.

As for MDT's being more expensive, that's not necessarily true. I'll bet you can find a nice used MDT for what you'd pay for a brand new F-350 Tow Boss -- if not less. In addition to searching through Truckpaper or Horse Trailer World's classified ads, the Escapee's Medium Duty Truck BOF (Birds of a Feather) has a website that includes a "for sale" section. You might even check the Classified section on this website to see if there are any MDT's for sale.

[Bob Wilson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I understand that PI builds an excellent 5th wheel, but don't understand why they have to be so heavy. Other brands of similar quality, NuWa and Carriage Cameo for example, come in with lower overall weights than Excel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill,

NuWa and Carriage are excellent brands ... we looked at them too before buying our Excel. The biggest difference, from my perspective, is wood versus aluminum framing in walls and roof. Condensation is a big problem for all RVs in cool climates, and wood does not conduct the cold into the trailer. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Excel is able to offer a -10 degree guarantee, while Carriage and Nu-Wa don't. It does appear that wood framing is heavier (Tetons are heavy too) than aluminum.

Bob

[Bob Wilson]

If you're reading this thread and thinking that moving up from a 1-ton truck to any 'medium duty' truck will solve the problem, be careful.

I looked seriously at a GMC 5500 before buying my Dodge 3500, and they were both rated to tow roughly the same weight:

- base weight of the Dodge = 7,000 lbs, GCWR = 23,000 lbs, net towing capacity (ignoring people, fuel, hitch, etc.) = 16,000 lbs.

- base weight of the GMC 5500 with tow body = 10,000 lbs, GCWR = 26,000, net towing capacity (ignoring same as above) = 16,000 lbs.

Basically the same problem with the new Dodge 4500 and 5500 ... their GCWR is also 26,000 lbs max.

The Ford 450 and 550, properly equipped, do have GCWRs high enough to handle any Excel.

Other than the Fords, a better bet in the medium duty market is to step up to a class 6 rig ... something like the freightliner M2.

PS: A beautiful GMC 5500 color matched to a new Kountry Aire 5th wheel rated at GVWR of 21,000 lbs just pulled in next to me. Depending on the weight of his hauler bed and load in the trailer, he could be running 4,000 to 6,000 lbs over his GCWR.

[D and J]

GM/GMC's are a little difficult to figure out when you go to the 4500 and 5500 and 6500.

They offer many rear gear options, and they de-tune the duramax too.

There are lots of stars and astricks in the GMC catalog. You really need to work with a truck specialist when ordering or buying a GM MDT. The guy next to you might be just fine with his load. GM likes to skirt the CDL issue by listing them at 26K, with the right axle they pull more.

I had put money down on a M2 before I found my F550. My wife loved it, parrellel parked it, and backed it into the dealers lot. People who think they can't drive such a truck really need to give it a try. I found it much easier to drive and park than my F550, and after my current trip to SD and back to NJ, I almost wish we had bought the M2, the air seats and air cab would make it much easier for me to type this (we are on rt80 in PA right now, mile marker 111)

Rolling internet is great!!! but PA roads still stink! (ka-bump, ka-bump, ka-bump!)