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Old 01-28-2015, 01:36 AM   #1
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New to RVs, Possible Outlaw owner soon!

Hi all! First off I'd like to thank all the posters here for providing such a wealth of information. My wife and I are inches away from joining the RV world and are eyeing a 2007 Outlaw 3611.

It's got 33k miles and can be had for about US$50k. Our plan is to start off with it then get a 2014 37LS in a couple of years slightly used, though we can get a new one now for about US$110k.

The 2007 is in great shape and the price of entry is attractive, but the 2014 has the newer features we like but comes at a cost that is possible if we juggle things around. Our hope is that in 2 years, the '14 becomes more affordable and our '07 would still have value in a trade.

We'd appreciate any of your insights on our situation. If it's like everything else I've read, I know it'll come from a great deal of experience!

Thanks in advance... and hopefully cya soon!

Anthony
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:57 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonynalli View Post
Hi all! My wife and I are inches away from joining the RV world . . .

The 2007 is in great shape and the price of entry is attractive, but the 2014 has the newer features we like but comes at a cost that is possible if we juggle things around. Our hope is that in 2 years, the '14 becomes more affordable and our '07 would still have value in a trade.

We'd appreciate any of your insights on our situation.

Anthony
Hi Anthony,

Your question transcends make and model - all owners are faced with the financial realities of acquisition, retention, and at some point, the disposession of the "older" (depreciated) coach, often in conjunction with an "upgrade transaction."

Unfortunately, our "motorhomes" are not real estate, and unlike real real estate, which is one of the few assets we can invest in with a potential for appreciation, painfully, we who find big RV's a necessity of life, achieve the enjoyment through "eyes open" navigation of the depreciation machinery.

We have navigated our way through more depreciation than I wish to recount, but having recently faced a very similar purchase decision, I can share an RV Industry factor you need to make sure you factor into your calculations.

Use RV Trader to study the used asking prices of big coaches (or big 5th wheels) of any make and model that has a long continuous production history.

What becomes obvious is an abrupt drop in prices after the 2005 to 2007 age - some really high line coaches all of a sudden seem to drop into reach of mear mortals. What you are seeing is not some uniform loss of value based on coaches all wearing out at the same age.

What you see is the natural market influence of coaches reaching the maximum age beyond which the biggest RV lenders will not write financing.

Specialty lenders who write loans beyond this age limit charge interest rates that may be TWICE as high.

So, when any given coach passes this age boundry, the buyer pool suddenly shrinks to cash buyers plus buyers willing to pay interest rates twice as high as a one year newer unit (but a newer unit priced much higher).

Call Essex and get them to tell you where you stand with a coach in this transition age range.

We decided on our recent purchase, after months of flirting with very appealing pre-owned prices, not to take out a note on a coach that within months to a year or two could not be returned to the market, except to cash buyers.

Expected time in ownership is probably the biggest variable that I think should guide individual decisions. If you are purchasing to keep forever, and new unit warranty is not a concern, an already depreciated unit will insulate you from the pain that comes with enjoying a brand new one. You can also find great units that prior owners have spent years carefully dialing in.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:05 AM   #3
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Your post was moved to it's own thread to give it as much exposure as possible.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonynalli View Post
Hi all! First off I'd like to thank all the posters here for providing such a wealth of information. My wife and I are inches away from joining the RV world and are eyeing a 2007 Outlaw 3611.

We'd appreciate any of your insights on our situation. If it's like everything else I've read, I know it'll come from a great deal of experience!

Thanks in advance... and hopefully cya soon!

Anthony
We had a similar decision to make. Same year models and it became an issue of deciding whether to buy new or used. We went with the new for several reasons.... probably none of which make good financial sense. My wife favored a new one simply because she didn't want to live in one where others had lived before. I didn't care. I rationalized it financially because the negotiated price was way below MSRP. That coupled with the fact that the coach is warrantied pushed me towards new. It is an individual choice. Good luck!
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:18 AM   #5
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Thanks for the very insightful replies so far. Interesting you should suggest that that threshold is 2005-2007 since the unit we're looking at IS a 2007, and we'd be looking to upgrade in 2 years (the equivalent of the lower end of that range).

We recognize that we'd take a hit on the resale of the '07, but if we get it for $50k, and the dealer (for whatever THAT'S worth) says we can reasonably expect $40k in 2 years, that's a hit I can accept. In fact, even a little less perhaps.

We found an RV depreciation table online that indicated years 1 and 2 were 18% and 10% respectively. On a $110k 2014, that's almost $29k. So if we lose $20k on the '07 in two years, selling it for as low as $30k (much lower than the dealer projection), that's still $9,000 better. (Pardon all the flinging of numbers, I like to balance measurable figures to weigh benefits. I "verbalized" that for any other weirdos like me).

But the truth is, this is brand new to us and even $50,000 seems like a little bit of a plunge. In 2 years, $100k+ may seem like a no-brainer for our newly found life... which is kind of what we're expecting based on the million or so pages we've read so far!

A
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Old 01-28-2015, 02:50 PM   #6
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We bought used. We have no intension to sell...so our '07 is a keeper.

When looking to buy, we decided that the depreciation was something that we would want to mitigate (if able). So, we started a hunt to find a gently used 3611 and after about 2 months of searching, we were on a plane to TX from SoCal.

Specifically to discuss the 3611/37LS comparison:
1. The floor plans are "almost" identical. The 37LS is 1 foot longer. That space is in the middle with an added pantry in the kitchen aft of the Fridge.

2. The Ford chassis (6.8L [415 cubic inch] V10 and Ford 5 Speed Transmission) in the last 2 years have all been 26,000lb models = 2500LB capacity in the garage. From 2012-early 2014 the chassis was a 24K = 2500lb garage. Prior to about 2012 the Ford Chassis was a 22,000GVWR model = 1500lb garage capacity. The lower GVWR = somewhat softer ride.

3. The 2007-2010 Outlaw's were also available on the optional Workhorse W24 (24,000lb GVWR = 2500lb garage capacity) with the giant 8.1L [496 cubic inch] V8 (GM Vortec) and Allison 6 speed transmission. The engine is not working as hard for the same speeds, but it is not as high tech as the 3 valve per piston V10.

4. 2008-2010 offered a front engine Diesel option (27,000lb GVWR)...cool but rare.

5. Half Body paint became available about 2009. Full Body paint became available in 2013. Painted is better...the decals will fail over time.

6. Tech - the TV's (prior to the 2009 DTV conversion) will need a converter to watch OTA DTV. There is no Rapid Camp (prior to 2014). In 2007 the awnings were manual (power awnings came later)...all can be modified/upgraded.

That's about it


The bottom line for us was quality for dollar. -IF- we had not been able to find the RV we found, we were going to buy new (around $103K at year-end closeout is possible). The OBVIOUS benefit to buying new is the warranty. If you are not a handy-type person or have the ability to pay for the routine things that need attention, used might not be a good idea.
It is wise to "get your feet wet" with a less expensive RV. And if you find the right model like us, there might not be a reason to trade...not in the near future, at least

Best luck
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Old 01-28-2015, 03:03 PM   #7
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And remember, Outlaw owners congregate here:
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f120/i-lo...aw-102560.html

And there's lots of stuff here too:
OUTLAW Mods and Easy Fixes

Safe travels
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Old 01-28-2015, 04:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
And remember, Outlaw owners congregate here:
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f120/i-lo...aw-102560.html

And there's lots of stuff here too:
OUTLAW Mods and Easy Fixes

Safe travels
I've literally spent DAYS so far going through these threads! I have a shopping list of moderate upgrades I want to tackle!
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Old 01-28-2015, 04:51 PM   #9
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Thanks Steve and Kim. Knowing you have an '07 I was thrilled to see your reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
Specifically to discuss the 3611/37LS comparison:
1. The floor plans are "almost" identical. The 37LS is 1 foot longer. That space is in the middle with an added pantry in the kitchen aft of the Fridge.
We like the floorplan of of either unit. The big loss for me is the dropdown bunk. I think that's cool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
2. The Ford chassis (6.8L [415 cubic inch] V10 and Ford 5 Speed Transmission) in the last 2 years have all been 26,000lb models = 2500LB capacity in the garage. From 2012-early 2014 the chassis was a 24K = 2500lb garage. Prior to about 2012 the Ford Chassis was a 22,000GVWR model = 1500lb garage capacity. The lower GVWR = somewhat softer ride.
I'd certainly LIKE the extra capacity. Ideally, I'd like to house the Softail and Sportster in the garage AND tow the SUV. But I understand that would put us over in the '07. Practically speaking, the 1300 lbs the Harleys weigh are within the lower limits of the '07, and that's the reason for choosing a toy hauler to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
3. The 2007-2010 Outlaw's were also available on the optional Workhorse W24 (24,000lb GVWR = 2500lb garage capacity) with the giant 8.1L [496 cubic inch] V8 (GM Vortec) and Allison 6 speed transmission. The engine is not working as hard for the same speeds, but it is not as high tech as the 3 valve per piston V10.
I'd love for the one we're looking at to be the Workhorse model, but it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
4. 2008-2010 offered a front engine Diesel option (27,000lb GVWR)...cool but rare.
Diesel isn't something we're missing. Don't want to get into that debate here but we're happy with gas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
5. Half Body paint became available about 2009. Full Body paint became available in 2013. Painted is better...the decals will fail over time.
Decals look to be in great shape right now. We'll keep an eye though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
6. Tech - the TV's (prior to the 2009 DTV conversion) will need a converter to watch OTA DTV. There is no Rapid Camp (prior to 2014). In 2007 the awnings were manual (power awnings came later)...all can be modified/upgraded.
I'm a gadget junkie and find the existing TVs almost laughable. They have GOT to go! I'd like to add an inverter and have been looking at the Cotek ST2500 (someone here installed the ST1000 but the 2500 seems SO much more robust). I have no idea what's even involved with this, so I just keep on reading the threads!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
The bottom line for us was quality for dollar. -IF- we had not been able to find the RV we found, we were going to buy new (around $103K at year-end closeout is possible). The OBVIOUS benefit to buying new is the warranty. If you are not a handy-type person or have the ability to pay for the routine things that need attention, used might not be a good idea.
It is wise to "get your feet wet" with a less expensive RV. And if you find the right model like us, there might not be a reason to trade...not in the near future, at least
I'm not mechanically handy but very technical, if that makes sense. I have no problem paying for professional installation of things I can't handle to make sure they're done right (inverter), but will tweak and modify incrementally to enhance and personalize.

Like you, it's quality for the dollar. And while in my heart of hearts I'd LOVE the 2014, I just don't see over 100% more value in that over the 2007. With low mileage, in good shape, and with most of the same basic features, paying less than half allows us to spend a bit on add-ons and still come away spending around the 50% of the 2014's price tag. Unless I'm seeing it completely wrong, I see good value in all that.

A
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:36 PM   #10
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Thanks Steve and Kim. Knowing you have an '07 I was thrilled to see your reply...

I'd certainly LIKE the extra capacity. Ideally, I'd like to house the Softail and Sportster in the garage AND tow the SUV. But I understand that would put us over in the '07. Practically speaking, the 1300 lbs the Harleys weigh are within the lower limits of the '07, and that's the reason for choosing a toy hauler to begin with....


I'm not mechanically handy but very technical, if that makes sense. I have no problem paying for professional installation of things I can't handle to make sure they're done right (inverter), but will tweak and modify incrementally to enhance and personalize.

Like you, it's quality for the dollar. And while in my heart of hearts I'd LOVE the 2014, I just don't see over 100% more value in that over the 2007. With low mileage, in good shape, and with most of the same basic features, paying less than half allows us to spend a bit on add-ons and still come away spending around the 50% of the 2014's price tag. Unless I'm seeing it completely wrong, I see good value in all that.

A
Anthony,

Just a note about the bolded section above:

The '07 Outlaw is about 19,000lb - unloaded (Ford or Workhorse). That number (UVW) reportedly includes a full propane tank. The specific numbers are posted on a sticker inside a kitchen cabinet door...and Damon actually weighed each unit at the end of assembly back in those days
For more info, the original sales flyer is here:
http://thormotorcoach.com/media/docu...007-outlaw.pdf

That leaves 3,000lb for you and your stuff inside the RV. If you stay at the Ford's max 22,000lb GVWR, the 26,000lb GCWR allows it to safely tow a 4,000lb toad (on the OEM 5,000lb receiver hitch).

We tow a 3,500lb SUV with no issues...literally can't tell the difference between towing/not towing...but we have the W24 Chassis option.

And, several Outlaw veterans have reported running around for years with their Ford F53 equipped Outlaws carrying 2 street bikes in the garage and towing normal sized cars/Jeeps with no issues. Plus if you want to add to the GVWR, there are airbags available for the F53.

Best luck
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Old 01-28-2015, 05:53 PM   #11
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Plus if you want to add to the GVWR, there are airbags available for the F53.
ADD to the GVWR????? So I can modify to exceed this limit?
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:50 PM   #12
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ADD to the GVWR????? So I can modify to exceed this limit?
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Weight Police here on iRV2...Yes.

The GVWR is the sum total of the front and rear spring capacities.
Specifically for the 22,000lb F53 driveline - It is rated to pull up to and including 26,000lb rolling load (GCWR)...this includes a capacity in the garage of 2500lb (frame capacity) shared with the W24 - but that number was reduced to 1500lb because of the GVWR.

Typically, the axles on these big truck chassis are capable of carrying more weight than the spring rating - and the difference between the models (like 22K to 24K version) is often just spring packs selected upon order, so an airbag system can be added to allow some extra load.
Like: 2007 Ford Motorhome Air Bag Suspension Kits | Air Lift Company

Warning: Airbags will not change the GCWR. That requires adding extra equipment for the driveline (i.e. add'l tranny and engine oil cooling, cold air intake, free flow exhaust, etc.) and no mfgt of aftermarket parts will report the specifics of increase in GVWR for liability reasons...but you can do the math and see the change possible.

Safe travels
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:52 PM   #13
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Many thanks!
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:33 PM   #14
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I've looked into the airsprings and think that your opening my eyes to them has all but eliminated the last of any apprehension towards moving on the 2007. I fully understand your warning about GCWR, but if front and rear airsprings can help, then I think we're where we need to be.

Their website suggests a 5000 lb bump, but I don't see it wise to assume 22,000 lbs becomes 27,000 pounds! But as you suggest, if they are a key difference in the 22k and 24k version, would planning for a 2,000 increase be reasonably safe?

I can do a LOT more with 5,000 lbs of payload than 3,000.
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