I love my Thor | Damon Outlaw!

[focker]

Originally Posted by Scarab0088

John (Timon)
If you want to see a photo of solar on the flat part of a legacy Outlaw, please goto:
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f121/outl...ml#post2112313
There will be mounting differences of course with the space being bigger and having different vents on the RE or RF , but Scott (Focker) might be able to add something to the discussion.

If you have solar questions I should be able to answer most of them...

[RV.Driver]

Originally Posted by Timon

Q7. If you leave on a day trip do you put it back up or leave it down?

A7.
I now understand the question to be "is rear access more secure with the ramp up and padlocked?"

I assume the rear bath door will be locked and dead bolted in both cases.

It will take 30 to 60 seconds longer for a B&E artist to cut both ramp padlocks.

It may be more noticeable to camping neighbors if thieves open your ramp.

And finally, your back entry may be less secure in a back-in campsite.

In general, if you are not comfortable leaving your locked coach, the additional padlocks seems to be of little additional physical consequence.

[crey0517]

For anyone interested:

Hyperlink to unit: RVs for sale, New & Used motorhomes, New RVs, Texas RV Dealer

Or you can go to MHSRV's website: (Texas RV Dealer, Used RVs for sale, motorhome sales, new RVs) and type in 22817 in the search at the top right hand side of the page -

I've been creeping these threads for years but I'm new to making posts - hope all of this works -

Over & out -

[Scarab0088]

Originally Posted by crey0517

For anyone interested:

Over & out -

WOW! Great find!
Thanks Charles!
I looked on MHSRV's inventory just on Wednesday and they had no RF's, yet.

I thought, for sure that the first/prototype RF was going to make the RV show rounds like the first RE (which came to the Pomona show last year with 2 way, not Residential Fridge)...and maybe so, but MHSRV is on it, like is often the case.

Think we can see now why the 50" interior TV is rearward by the slightly rearward dinette...that end of the window opens and allows light in by the more forward entryway (only the LS has the more rearward entry door and side light window forward of the door) so occupants can look out the left side of the nearest window toward the outside of the entryway. Don't know if that's normal for others...we hardly ever actually look out the doorway window if someone comes a'knockin'. Opinions?

Just noticed 1 more difference between the TH and Residence models...deck size. The LS/MD/RB have a 100" tall ramp/deck. The RE/RF deck is only 88" tall. For 12"difference, must be the loss of the ramped rear edge of the floor, plus a few inches off the top too. Interesting, since there is a risk of water pooling between the wetbar/halfbath wall and the deck hinge that would be addressed
These "In-Law" Outlaws are pretty nice...but we would still miss the garage.

Safe Outlaw travels

[Timon]

Originally Posted by focker

If you have solar questions I should be able to answer most of them...

Even though I'm an engineer by trade I'm always open to add information or collaboration. You never have too much information at least until you brain goes into overload. What I like about the large deck on the 38RE and 38RF is that I can go with larger panels rather than more smaller ones. That typically won't work on a regular coach since your always working around ACs, vents and antennas. It also won't work as well on the 37LS due to the extra vents right in the middle.

I'm figuring when we pull the trigger I'll do some serious testing to see just how much the current batteries will supply making sure they get fully charged. Once I have a good idea on my amp hour usage then I'll start planning out the Solar installation and what batteries I'll finally use. The engineer in my is leaning toward lithium iron phosphate (aka LiFePO4 or LFP) but that is in no way absolute.

Originally Posted by Scarab0088

John (Timon)

From a long time owner of an Outlaw with a ramp useable as a rear deck...
We practice a simple rule "Help keep honest people honest"
So, when we are away from the RV more than a quick errand, we pick-up the campsite and close and secure the RV - including the deck. Sure patio furniture can be slid into the garage pretty easy (unlike on the RE), but that prevents any surprises upon return.

For the solar...if you want to see a photo of solar on the flat part of a legacy Outlaw, please goto:
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f121/outl...ml#post2112313
There will be mounting differences of course with the space being bigger and having different vents on the RE or RF , but Scott (Focker) might be able to add something to the discussion.

For us, the deck (by F15pilot)
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f121/outl...ml#post2116088
and hatch (by Dry)
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f121/i-lo...ml#post1650352
added to that part of the roof would be preferable...'cuz we don't boondock as much as others, but solar is a great addition.

Best luck

Looks like if I'm leaving the dogs in the 38RF locking the deck doors should be fine at least for them entering the coach. The roll up door is the real question. I do have a few ideas but I'll just think about it till the time comes.

Thanks for the two links. I actually though about an exit hatch if we were to get the toy hauler version. In fact if one did that along with the roof deck you might just want to put the hatch right where you come op the stairs rather than use an outside ladder. You'd have to make up some sort of a step system to go up that last 30 or so inches.

Originally Posted by RV.Driver

Offered below are some basic tips as an introduction to successful RV WiFi.

Getting good WiFi coverage in an RV park really isn't that hard but the park can have the best WiFi and still have bad Internet service if they don't invent in a good Internet feed. Most parks don't or won't invest in a fast interconnect from their ISP.

If it's a large park they shouldn't be getting their service from TimeWarner or some other tier three providers but they should really be talking to a tier two provider which is where most ISP get their service. This way they will get much better service at a lower price point. This is way over the head of a park manager which is where they need professional help.

As far as coach layout you right in there. Have your own WiFi that covers you coach network and then the roof WiFi that connects to the park, McDonnell's or some other source. In fact if all of your devices support the 5GHz band use it for you're coach network. Problem is that many devices such as smart tv's do support the 5GHz band yet.

[Russtj60]

"I have found and applied a water proofing treatment that works...."

Larry,

I would be interested in the process you used to waterproof the deck. Thanks

Russ

[RV.Driver]

Originally Posted by Timon

Getting good WiFi coverage in an RV park really isn't that hard but the park can have the best WiFi and still have bad Internet service if they don't invent in a good Internet feed. Most parks don't or won't invest in a fast interconnect from their ISP.

If it's a large park they shouldn't be getting their service from TimeWarner or some other tier three providers but they should really be talking to a tier two provider which is where most ISP get their service. . . This is way over the head of a park manager which is where they need professional help.

John, My recent "experiments" refurbishing an only recently deployed RV park infrastructure led me to an alternate opinion. This experiment allowed for incremental before-and-after evaluation of every aspect of the RV park's Internet infrastructure, isolating what mattered, and disproving the intuitive hypothesis that almost all the park guests held: "The park owner just needed to purchase a LOT more bandwidth from Time Warner."

Getting good WiFi coverage in an RV park really isn't that hard . . .

Radio density was the first "hard" problem. Over a period of just one year, with the same number of park guests, satisfaction had gone from "very satisfied" to "unable to function," even though everyone still had strong enough WiFi signal strength.

1. Radio Reflections caused by big RVs result in the same phenomena as ghost pictures with old analog TV. WiFi radios are not resilient to this transmission environment. Multiple equidistant radio paths caused by reflections creates a problem semi-unique to RV parks. WiFi radios receiving multiple copies of the same data transmission typically experience a reception error, so the data must be re-transmitted. This is FAR worse and FAR more frequent with weaker radio signals from client devices with the weakest antennae found in battery powered smartphones and tablets. Every radio "retry" in the WiFi traffic pattern steals time slots and reduces the total successful traffic that can get through. RV park radios, situated even a few hundred feet from an RV, especially with aluminum skinned trailers in between, can be empirically observed operating with over 80% retries, implying less than 20% of the theoretical traffic is possible.

Obsolete technology presents a second "hard" problem:

2. Old Radios purchased in years past, predominate in most RV parks. Even today, many G-only outdoor radios are still being purchased and installed! Affordable WiFi consultants are advising park owners to purchase and install affordable equipment. Such radios were OK several years ago, but are now totally incapable of maintaining service with the current generation of client devices favoring multiple smartphones and tablets per RV, with a shrinking ratio of labtops. Newer N vs. G radios not only provide 3 to 6 times the total data bandwidth, they offer multiple radio technology, each radio able to fight its own way through reflection induced data retransmissions. A single new RV guest checking in and attaching their video streaming TV box to a G-only radio will saturate that access point, stop everyone else from being able to access the Internet, and yet also fail to acquire the streaming video. Outdated radios attempting to service 12 or more devices plus video streaming will go into lockup with 100% retries and 100% packet loss. Yet everyone may see "five bars."

Repeaters and boosters rob the spectrum (try not to use these):

3a. As mentioned before, guests trying to "fix" their perceived connection problems may eventually purchase all-in-one signal repeating radios that, in practice, are observed to sit on the SAME WiFi frequency as the RV park's radio which they are attempting to "boost." Since they repeat ALL observed WiFi traffic, not just the traffic associated with their owner's particular RV, these parasites effectively cut the "quiet time" available for the RV park's real WiFi radios to service everyone else's traffic.

3b. Some RV parks still operate with this same "repeater" technology deployed within their own infrastructure with an equally negative impact on their guest's user experience. RV Parks that have installed newer infrastructure will use separate radios to interconnect their remote access points (you may see this referred to as "backhaul"). Today, all the park's backhaul connections should be accomplished with 5GHz radios if hard wiring is not feasible.

Finally, the ISP pipe is never big enough for dozens of video streamers:

4. Once enough modern commercial grade access points are deployed and their backhaul is modernized with carrier grade 5GHz radios that do not rob the user spectrum, the question of the RV park's ISP connection becomes relevant. This is where John makes the valid point that faster connections offering greater bandwidth clearly make a difference, and any park in a position to negotiate with a tier two provider should pursue that option. However, the total NAT bandwidth of the park's router, and the park's use of a bandwidth limiting router turns out to be far more critical than the park's ISP's pipe size. Until such a device was acquired and the arduous setup accomplished, it was not obvious that such a statement could be made. Experiments were conducted using this affordable TPL router:
Amazon.com: TP-LINK TL-ER5120 5-port Gigabit Multi-WAN Load Balance Router, 1 LAN, 3 Configurable WAN/LAN Ports, 1 Hardware DMZ port: Computers & Accessories

Such a device until recently would cost a park thousands of dollars.

Now, Amazon Prime will drop one off on your doorstep for under $200.

This is the top reccomended router for RV parks by one of the nation's "un-affordable" consultants.

What this technology does is guarantee every connected client device in the park, a certain minimum pie slice of the shared connection to the ISP.

It can also be configured to limit every device to a maximum sized pie slice.

Thus, video streaming devices essentially compete amongst themselves for residual traffic opportunities, AFTER everyone just browsing and doing email is more than adequately served with their bandwidth needs.

After installation, it quickly becomes apparent that ISP connections that would often be considered marginal just for a single home, are adequate for the level of service that a typical RV park claims to offer the guests.

(This of course excludes the guests who somehow presume that they can attach multiple high def TV streamers to a park's WiFi and then gripe when they see choppy buffering during TV shows.)

What was recently demonstrated is that a single 35Mb x 5Mb cable connection provided guests with over 140 connected devices a level of service that generated zero complaints over a three week period.

Over a dozen video streamers were isolated via traffic analysis and allocated increased bandwidth, but not enough more to interfere with the rest of the community's needs. Presumably, all the video streamers were able to pre-buffer their data adequately. Devices like DirecTV's Genie, that pull down on-demand shows from the Internet, are very well architected and especially well suited to loading shows over moderate speed connections for watching whenever the download completes.

A router like the one demonstrated also allows the combination of multiple WAN connections so several upgraded 50Mb x 5Mb cable connections can be aggregated as the park continues to grow data demands by three to one over the next few years.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by crey0517

For anyone interested:

Hyperlink to unit: RVs for sale, New & Used motorhomes, New RVs, Texas RV Dealer

Over & out -

Thanks Charles from me as well.

Originally Posted by Scarab0088

WOW! Great find!
Thanks Charles!
I looked on MHSRV's inventory just on Wednesday and they had no RF's, yet.

I found the same on Thursday.

I thought, for sure that the first/prototype RF was going to make the RV show rounds like the first RE (which came to the Pomona show last year with 2 way, not Residential Fridge)...and maybe so, but MHSRV is on it, like is often the case.

I was sure hopping that they were bringing it out to Pomona but they're only bringing a LS and RE.

Think we can see now why the 50" interior TV is rearward by the slightly rearward dinette...that end of the window opens and allows light in by the more forward entryway (only the LS has the more rearward entry door and side light window forward of the door) so occupants can look out the left side of the nearest window toward the outside of the entryway. Don't know if that's normal for others...we hardly ever actually look out the doorway window if someone comes a'knockin'. Opinions?

Since the window is the full length of the dinette I'd still rather see the HDTV toward the front. It gives a more direct line for viewing plus one can mount a computer monitor using an arm on the bathroom wall. I think it also put the outdoor TV and the speakers in a better location. You'd also get better speaker placement if you wanted to add 5.1 surround sound inside.

Normally you see the telavator centered on the table but that requires a deeper dinette so you can brace the table enough. Since there are no braces under the table I assume they have a steel bar coming from the wall so the HDTV had to be offset to clear the brace.

Just noticed 1 more difference between the TH and Residence models...deck size. The LS/MD/RB have a 100" tall ramp/deck. The RE/RF deck is only 88" tall. For 12"difference, must be the loss of the ramped rear edge of the floor, plus a few inches off the top too. Interesting, since there is a risk of water pooling between the wetbar/halfbath wall and the deck hinge that would be addressed

It's something that has bother me about the design. It does seem to me that they could have kept the taper so water would drain toward the back but maybe they have another way to handle the problem. I'll ask them about it along with some other questions such, as the HDTV placement, while I'm at the Pomona show.

These "In-Law" Outlaws are pretty nice...but we would still miss the garage.

Safe Outlaw travels

That they are. I'd like a place to store small toys such as bikes but not much more than that. However if they had a garage that was more non garage like and had a Murphy bed and closet on the DS wall so you could have some garage space when it's up that would be interesting. I know that some have done that modification themselves.

[Timon]

Larry, you make good points. Other than bandwidth you're fighting three issues when it comes to covering the park. One is that you can't cover a large area with only one or two access points and get coverage.

• You have to use segmented antennas on different bands. The larger the park the more you need. If it's a really large park you make need multiple segmented antenna locations.
• The other problem interference between users WiFi and the parks WiFi. In a segmented system the protocol should work around the problem but it's not a guarantee.
• Lastly you have the older protocol issue that you spoke about. The park either has to accept that or let people know that older protocol are not supported. That's what I do at home on my guest network, I turn off all of the older protocols.

I've read that Disney's RV park in FL does not use except in the cabins and a few other places but actually distributes Internet service exactly how TW does it to your home using their cable network.

Today there are 1788 campsites and 409 Wilderness Cabins. Not only are the Cabins (as well as the Reception Outpost, Meadow Trading Post, and Crockett's Tavern) equipped with free wireless internet access, but the campsites have free wired internet access. Just stop by the Reception Outpost and pick up a modem kit. There will be a $125 credit card deposit to use the modem kit; deposit will be released when the kit is returned.

I think this can be a great way for parks to do Internet assuming the park has cable wiring in place. You basically git rid of the interference and protocol problems you have with WiFi with lots of users. Even a small head end can support hundred of sites. Feed that into your coach WiFi and you're go to go. I figure if Disney has been able to pull it off it could work with other RV parks. Plus there is nothing better than a hard connection to the Internet.

The question is what percentage of RV parks have a cable distribution system?

[RV.Driver]

Originally Posted by Timon

Other than bandwidth you're fighting three issues when it comes to covering the park. . . I figure if Disney has been able to pull it off it could work with other RV parks. . .

John, Agreed. The original question was "has anyone been successful with a WiFi booster in an Outlaw . . . . ?"

Sorry I got long winded, but it is not a trivial question as to why RV parks in general do not seem to offer adequate WiFi performance when many hotels do (at least not the performance guests expect today). As you indicate, it is not an engineering "problem" but rather, an investment issue.

Compared with the budget of Disney, the park I just refurbished had a budget of well under $1,000.

The "client-mode access point" configuration I suggested in the earlier post was intended just to answer the question Badlands asked, which I interpreted as "what can an RV owner can do to provide an improved WiFi signal inside their coach for many devices, regardless of the park's WiFi service quality level." Of course the park must meet a minimum level of functionality or no user gear will help. And "commercial boosters" (as just observed again today) are really more what should be considered signal "jammers."

[Scarab0088]

Originally Posted by RV.Driver

A7.
I now understand the question to be "is rear access more secure with the ramp up and padlocked?"

I assume the rear bath door will be locked and dead bolted in both cases.

It will take 30 to 60 seconds longer for a B&E artist to cut both ramp padlocks.

It may be more noticeable to camping neighbors if thieves open your ramp.

And finally, your back entry may be less secure in a back-in campsite.

In general, if you are not comfortable leaving your locked coach, the additional padlocks seems to be of little additional physical consequence.

I never worried about the rear ramp security...until now

So, I am buying these:

Trimax Internal Shackle 3 Pack Keyed Alike Hockey Puck Door Locks - Locks and Lock Parts - Entry Door - Hardware
$33 on Amazon
They also won't swing while driving, so no more marks from the padlocks


Safe Outlaw Travels

[RV.Driver]

Originally Posted by Scarab0088

I never worried about the rear ramp security...until now So, I am buying these:
Attachment 108881

Thanks Steve for the hot tip,

I just ordered the Amazon Prime Two-Pack for < $34
Amazon.com: Trimax THP2XL Keyed Alike Trailer Door Lock, (Pack of 2): Automotive

A determined B&E artist will just hacksaw or use a battery powered grinder to cut both steel arms outward of the hasps and locks.

However, they may only bring a bolt cutter on their intended break-in and hopefully move on down the street when they find a pair of Trimax.

As a minimum, the time and NOISE involved in getting past these will be SIGNIFICANTLY increased, which is especially important if the attempted B&E occurs while someone is home. It may also make the difference in attracting enough attention from campground neighbors to further dissuade the attempt.

[Timon]

Originally Posted by RV.Driver

Thanks Steve for the hot tip,

I just ordered the Amazon Prime Two-Pack for < $34
Amazon.com: Trimax THP2XL Keyed Alike Trailer Door Lock, (Pack of 2): Automotive

A determined B&E artist will just hacksaw or use a battery powered grinder to cut both steel arms outward of the hasps and locks.

However, they may only bring a bolt cutter on their intended break-in and hopefully move on down the street when they find a pair of Trimax.

As a minimum, the time and NOISE involved in getting past these will be SIGNIFICANTLY increased, which is especially important if the attempted B&E occurs while someone is home. It may also make the difference in attracting enough attention from campground neighbors to further dissuade the attempt.

This one is a little more expensive but it cover the screws around the lock area although they could still cut the arms.
Amazon.com: Blaylock DL-80 Cargo Trailer Door Lock - 2-Pack of Keyed Alike Locks: Automotive

I did see one that has a cover which goes over the arms as well.
Trailer Door Locks - California Immobilizer

[Scarab0088]

Found a rare Outlaw here:
http://www.mikethompson.com/default....=xAllInventory

A 3612 (with the factory original Murphy Bed in the garage), that is riding on the Workhorse W24 (8.1L V8/Allison 6Speed).

Why is it rare? Folks that had the cash after the recession started, and who were ordering an Outlaw with all the options - seemed to go full-tilt with the Freightliner FRED Chassis (like Dan's 3612 [BK9Miami - may he Rest in Peace] and Vi's 3808 [ViCap]).

This one looks to be WELL CARED FOR...






Have said it before...IMHO, a Murphy Bed should be an option for the 37LS (provides a real dual purpose for the garage. But, guess the 37MD/RB makes it kinda' superfluous

Safe Outlaw Travels