Stuck in FL with a "lemon"? - trying to help my parents..

[DennyM]

Here's another one...

https://www.nicb.org/cps/rde/xchg/nicb/hs.xsl/index.htm

DennyM

[Ebsea]

The motorhome I saw on the lot in NC was being sold as "gently used".

[DennyM]

I just found the states that do NOT require salvage titles be issued on totalled vehicles... unfortunately, New Jersey is one of those states...

States that do not record salvage vehicle titles are Arizona, Arkansas, California, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont...

What this means is that when an insurance company totalls out a vehicle, they effectively "buy" the vehicle from the dealer. In order to resell that vehicle to a salvage yard or rebuilder, OR to an unscrupulous RV dealer thru an auction yard, they are reequired by state law to have a "Salvage Title" issued which remains on all subsequent titles issued. New Jersey does not require this, so a "clean" title can be issued on a "dirty" vehicle.

Since the motorhome was sold as "new," the New Jersey Attorney General's office may be able to help. They will investigate to determine if a title was previously issued to the dealership from another dealership, or whether the original "Manufacturer's Statement of Origin" (MSO) was provided to the county where the vehicle was licensed. The MSO would show the original dealer's name to whom Four Winds sold the coach, and by law that dealer is required to have a title issued to Scott' RV when Scott' RV purchased the coach.

If the MSO shows Scott's RV as the original dealer, then Scott's RV received it directly from Four Winds, and you are back to "square one."

DennyM

[DennyM]

Do you remember the make or model of the "gently used" coach? Since North Carolina requires salvage titles, I would bet the title on the "gently used" coach came from one of the "clean title" states.

DennyM

[MonacoMama]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">States that do not record salvage vehicle titles are Arizona, Arkansas, California, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Ohio, Rhode Island, Texas, Vermont... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>DennyM...Where did you get your information regarding California NOT recording salvaged titles?
California DOES record salvaged titles...along with "Lemon Law" and "Buyback" vehicles...I am now suspect of any state you have listed as being incorrect information...

[DennyM]

I got it from www.leaseguide.com...front page of their home page...DennyM

http://www.leaseguide.com/Articles/damagedcars.htm

[DennyM]

As a former insurance claims investigator, and having handled hundreds of salvage vehicles, I would prefer that ALL states require salvage titles on ALL types of damages, but they don't... some states specify salvage titles must be issued on collision damage. In New Jersey, to get a salvage title changed to a "clean" title, all the owner/dealer has to do is submit 4 photos, two frontal shots and 2 rearward shots, showing no collision damage to the vehicle. So in New Jersey, an unscrupulous RV dealer only has to wash off a flood damaged motorhome and get a clean title.

Other states do not appear to be an issue here, at least not at this time.

DennyM

[Kazoo Tom]

Denny, your information about Michigan is also wrong. Michigan has been recording Salvage titles since around 1978. In fact I was a state licensed Salvage inspector since the law started. I have been inactive for several years now, but I can assure you the law still exists. After a salvaged vehicle (any vehicle totalled by the insurance co.) is rebuilt, the new title is issued as "rebuilt Vehicle". This also applies to any vehicle coming from another state into Michigan with a Salvage or Rebuilt title.

This, of course, has little to do with the OP's original post. But it does show how inaccurate some of the information gathered from the web can be.

In reviewing the posts on this matter, it is also possible from the chronology stated pages earlier, that the damage is from road salt during the time of original transport. If the dealer did not immediatly wash the undercarriage the corrosive nature of the salt can do serious damage in a short time.

[whowhopop]

Neither Carfax or NICB suspect flood damage on my parent's MH. Carfax has 2 incidents reported but I'm guessing this could be the selling of the vehicle and the titling of the vehicle.

I have no reason to think my folks would not cooperate with any agency that might provide them with assistance.

Last check the dealership that has the MH is going to replace a 'pinion gear' or the 'pinion gears'... bear in mind that I have no idea what I'm talking about mechanically but I'm relatively sure that is what my father said.

Will keep everyone updated... if the MH is repaired correctly, they should be home by next weekend. I'll be able to crawl underneath and snap some photos and/post what Mom and Dad have from the trip.

Thanks again everyone!!

Scott

[DennyM]

Tom, I agree with your comments concerning the "web." However, on the New Jersey DMV guide it does state the following...

"How to Bring a Vehicle Out of Salvage
After a salvage title is issued, four photographs of the salvaged vehicle should be taken. To be acceptable, they must include:

Two photos of the entire front and left side of the vehicle (one before and one after repairs).
Two photos of the entire rear and right side of the vehicle (one before and one after repairs)."

And it appears a clean title is then issued, and not a rebuilt one. The mention of road salt is valid, if the vehicle was transported in the winter...however, the Attorney General's office could still check out these issues...

DennyM

DennyM

[DennyM]

I have been reviewing salvage laws in several states this PM, and basically the bottom line is that some states are stricter than others...New Jersey mentions collision in on area, then other losses in others, but it is up to the owner/dealer/insurance company to apply for the salvage/flood title, generallyonly if the "damages" exceed the value of the vehicle, or 75% of the value, or whatever.

The bottom line is that if I show up on the dealers lot as an insurance adjuster, and we agree on "damages" to the RV's on the lot, it will generally be a % of the value...say 74%. Legally, it is not then considered "salvage," and not subject to the salvage title laws.

What will incriminate the dealer IF he is guilty is if he sold the coach as "new" on a "new" bill of sale, then sent a title he obtained from another dealer when he bought the vehicle, rather than the MSO, to the county for the registration.

If the county received an MSO from the dealer, and it was sold to that same dealer by Four Winds and their name IS on the MSO, then he can argue that road salt did the damage.

Maybe Tom can elaborate on this or correct me if I am wrong.

DennyM

[Ebsea]

DennyM, I wish my memory was that good! It's been such a long time, I only remember it was a dark colored coach with silver and copperish colored "swirl" designs. Sorry.

[DennyM]

Scott, I have been researching a bit today and found some interesting stuff.

First, if you google the Four Winds International plant at 701 County Road 15, Elkhart, Indiana, you will see that the plant sits in a watershed area, surrounded by water. I have ordered the flood plain maps for that area, but the St Joesph river a short distance from the plant apparents floods often.

I have also found where in July, 2006, the county had a record rainfall, apparently several 6-8 inch downpours which was not normal for the area. See attached site, http://www.sjrbc.com/BasBites032006.pdf for a description of the St. Joesph river basin and Elkhart county.

Finally, today I found a new 2007 Hurricane for sale on a Four Winds dealer lot in the Southern California area, and the entire undercarriage was rusted. The rear differential cover appeared to have been replaced and the propane tank was badly corroded.

I have photos, and will post them on www.rvfactor.blogspot.com in a couple days.

Based on the above, it is "possible" that the chassis or motorhome could have been flooded while on Four Winds property, but frankly I can not imagine Four Winds Inernational would build on a flood damaged chassis.

If you could find the build date of your parents coach, it will help, as well as the photos. Southern California is a long way from New Jersey, and the mileage on this coach was about the right distance as well. Nevertheless, I plan to research this issue further.

If others with Four Winds products that have the appearance of being flooded could post on this site, it will help a lot.

DennyM

[DennyM]

Scott,

I sent you a personal message...Denny