Bio-Diesel is a NO-NO, per Cummins

[skypilot_1]

Light travels faster than sound...
that's why some people seem so bright before they open their mouths!

[KenZ71]

Humor - Didn't Willie Nelson run pure Bio fuel in his tour buses? Maybe that was part of his IRS settlement?

[Stuart W]

Originally Posted by Bigd9

This from Cummins:



https://www.cummins.com/engines/biodiesel-faqs



What Cummins engines can be used with B20 biodiesel?

The current approved engine models are as follows:



On-Highway: ISX, ISM, ISL, ISV5.0 and ISB engines built after January 2007. ISX CM570 built after January 2002.



Off-Highway: QSX, QSM, QSL, QSC, QSB6.7, QSB4.5 and QSB3.3 engines built after January 2007, Cummins MerCruiser[emoji769] Diesel Marine engines produced after 01 January 2007: B-Series, QSB, C-Series, QSC, and QSL, QSM11, QSM G-Drive, and QSF3.8



High Horsepower Off-Highway built after January 1, 2008, except Tier 4: QSK78, QSK60, QSK50, K2000E, K50, QSK45, QSK38, K1500E, K38, QST30, QSK23, QSK19 and K19. Also, Marine QSK60, QSK50, K50 QSK45, QSK38, K38 QSK19, K19.



Cummins has approved B20 for the high horsepower engines listed above with the following fuel systems: Pressure Timed, High-Pressure Injection, Modular Common Rail Fuel Injection System and BOSCH Pump-Line-Nozzle.

Perhaps these may be reasons Cummins has changed their position on RV Bio-Diesel:
Are there any biodiesel fuel storage guidelines?
Use biodiesel fuel within six months of its manufacture date. Biodiesel has lower oxidation stability compared to Petro Diesel. Avoid storing equipment with biodiesel blends in the fuel system for more than three months
3moths is pretty short and 6 months from the date manufacturing?

[Stuart W]

Then there is this;
What materials are incompatible with biodiesel?
Natural rubber, butyl rubber and some types of nitrile rubber (depending on chemical composition, construction and application) may be particularly susceptible to degradation. Also, copper, bronze, brass, tin, lead and zinc can cause deposit formations. The use of these materials and coatings must be avoided for fuel tanks and fuel lines. Fuel fittings and connectors are acceptable due to the small surface area in contact with the fuel.

[CaptainGizmo]

Originally Posted by skypilot_1

Light travels faster than sound...

that's why some people seem so bright before they open their mouths!

You’re free to leave this conversation and go find someone who’s perfect.

[Stuart W]

Steve don’t get sucked in, unfortunately plenty more can be found here. This forum is about information exchange and learning. Not everyone comes here for the same reasons.

[CaptainGizmo]

Originally Posted by Stuart W

Steve don’t get sucked in, unfortunately plenty more can be found here. This forum is about information exchange and learning. Not everyone comes here for the same reasons.

Yeah, exactly what I was thinking Stuart. It's because of guys like you and others that help flush this stuff out and get to the real story for others to learn by.

Never had much use for the "trolls" who just seem to take more pleasure in lobbing useless bombs into a group of, otherwise, super nice folks rather than to participate in the fun learning experience.

Thanks, again, for all your help and info!

[followingsea]

Thanks to this discussion I did learn that my vintage ISB does not like B20.

My vintage sailboat engine does not like lead free gas.

The point is that fuel is very important when your life depends on it so you need to know about taking care of it.

Boaters often debate the merits of gas verses diesel. While some boaters worry about fires precautions for using gasoline are not that hard to follow. Bad diesel fuel clogging fuel filters can get you killed out in bad weather.

Bacteria like to turn diesel into dirt and water. Cold causes it to gel.

Biofuels have the same issues and it is just a case of understanding what they are.

[CaptainGizmo]

Originally Posted by followingsea

Thanks to this discussion I did learn that my vintage ISB does not like B20.

GREAT! That’s what it’s all about; learning and helping others learn so we don’t make mistakes that can cost us dearly.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by CaptainGizmo

Hearing StuartW’s talk this week about running Bio-Diesel had me putting another roll of quarters into my “a**-kicking” machine.

He researched and contacted Cummins who suggests that Bio-Diesel ONLY be used in EMERGENCIES in RVs. I’m sure it’s all about the lack of use and long storage times.Attachment 243919

Uh, yeah, after nearly filling up at PILOT with...yup...BIO! It never crossed my mind, having used it in our fire apparatus for over a decade. We DO, however know about the sludge/gel effect and have always used stabilizers as a result.

So, today, I bought some of this stuff to add to my last 1/4 of a tank. The way I’m running through fuel, this won’t be a problem.

If anyone has any negative feedback on this stuff, let us know!

Wonder why me Cummins engine manual says my engine is approved to use up to B5 bio-diesel?
If you read this ISO diesel additive study you will find that product is low( #11) on the list

[Stuart W]

As promised I just got of the phone with Cummins, a 3rd rep. We talked about the above Cummins document stating that the engines listed can run on up to 20% BD. He also said it should be avoided due to the following reasons;
1)Less fuel economy
2)Higher corrosion
3)Cuts fuel filter change intervals in 1/2
4)Grows Algae rapidly
5)Cummins has seen major fuel system delivery system damage
caused by extended use of Bio-fuel
6)should not stay in tank more than 90 days
7)should not be used after 6 months from the manufacturer date

Bottom line, use Bio-Diesel @ 20% or less at your own risk, for the above reasons Cummins recommends limiting BD use to emergencies only.
These are the facts as I know them based on 3 phone calls to Cummins 1-800-286-6467

My personal conclusion is avoid BD if at all possible.
Hope this clears some questions up. Stuart W

[Bigd9]

Originally Posted by Stuart W

Then there is this;
What materials are incompatible with biodiesel?
Natural rubber, butyl rubber and some types of nitrile rubber (depending on chemical composition, construction and application) may be particularly susceptible to degradation. Also, copper, bronze, brass, tin, lead and zinc can cause deposit formations. The use of these materials and coatings must be avoided for fuel tanks and fuel lines. Fuel fittings and connectors are acceptable due to the small surface area in contact with the fuel.

These are the same concerns a lot of us were worried about way back when Bio-Diesel first started to show up in mainstream fueling stations. From what I have read, manufacturers have steadily improved the materials used in engine construction to meet the challenges of the future fuel changes. Look back as see the introduction of low sulfur fuel (that was a huge change), introduction of Bio, and who knows what is next. Manufactures need to be fortune tellers and look into the future. Your concerns are those shared by many who run diesel engines in construction earth movers , tractors, pickups and motorhomes.

This is a good discussion, but one we the consumer have little control over. Who really knows what is in the diesel fuel we buy? Could be anywhere from pure diesel to pure Bio. Just because the sign on the pump says so, doesn't really mean it is so. It all boils down to Bubba and what he punches into the dispensing computer at the distribution center. Maybe he doesn't have a lot of Bio in stock, so for the next few days stations will get a low % of mixed fuel, maybe he has a large overstock of bio with several tankers sitting there waiting to unload more Bio, well you can bet stations will get a much higher % of mixed fuels than normal. We the consumer just don't know.

[Ray,IN]

Wondering out loud; for those folks saying they only use pure diesel/no biodiesel, have you asked what lubricity additive the fuel contains? If so, what is that additive?

[Wayne M]

Wow! Such a controversial subject. Not one to believe what I hear so I do research myself. I called the 800 number that Stuart provided and spoke with James. After some time he said, "It should be okay to run B20." He also sent me a PDF file with Cummins' QuickServe reference. I got the link to the reference he sent and I'll provide the link at the end of my cut and paste from Cummins. If you have a QuickServe account you can go on and read the very, very long piece of information on "Diesel Fuel." This may be a long read so if you wish just jump down to the Bold part that begins "All Cummins engines...". There is a lot of information in the link, please take the time to read it.


Quick Serve Manual - Diesel Fuels

Thanks to Stuart for making me think. I didn't doubt what you were saying you heard but I just have heard so much controversial information on fuels. I just had to find the manual. Thanks.



Biodiesel Fuel
Cummins Inc. certifies its engines using the prescribed EPA and European Certification Fuels. Cummins Inc. does not certify engines on any other fuel. It is the user's responsibility to use the correct fuel as recommended by the manufacturer and allowed by EPA or other local regulatory agencies. In the United States, EPA allows only registered fuels and fuel additives to be entered into commerce. EPA has additional alternative fuel information at:

• http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fue...s/altfuels.htm

Biodiesel Terminology:

• Biofuels - Fuels produced from renewable resources.
• Biodiesel - A fuel comprised of methyl or ethyl ester-based oxygenates of long chain fatty acids derived from the transesterification of vegetable oils, animal fats, and cooking oils. These fuels are commonly known as Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME) or Fatty Acid Ethyl Esters (FAEE). Biodiesel properties are similar to those of diesel fuel, as opposed to gasoline or gaseous fuels, and thus are capable of being used in compression ignition engines.
• B100 - A fuel containing 100 percent biodiesel.
• Petrodiesel - Diesel fuel produced purely from petroleum. Petrodiesel can also be referred to as distillate diesel.
• Biodiesel Blend - A fuel comprised of a mixture of petrodiesel and B100 biodiesel. A biodiesel blend is typically designated by the percentage of biodiesel in the blend. For example: B5 is a fuel containing 95 percent petrodiesel and 5 percent B100.
• Rapeseed Methyl Ester (RME) diesel - Biodiesel derived from rapeseed oil. RME diesel is the most common biodiesel used in Europe.
• Soy Methyl Ester (SME or SOME) diesel - Biodiesel derived from soybean oil. SME diesel is the most common biodiesel used in the United States.
• BQ-9000 - The National Biodiesel Accreditation Program, which is called BQ-9000, is a cooperative and voluntary program for the accreditation of producers and marketers of biodiesel fuel. The program is a unique combination of the ASTM standard for biodiesel, ASTM D6751, and a quality systems program that includes storage, sampling, testing, blending, shipping, distribution, and fuel management practices.

With increased interest in reducing the use of petroleum distillate based fuels, many governments and regulating bodies encourage the use of biofuels, such as biodiesel.
Cummins Inc. test data on the operating effects of biodiesel fuels indicates that typically smoke, power, and fuel economy are all reduced.
There are specifications for biodiesel issued in Europe under EN14214 and in North America under ASTM D6751. These specifications define only the biodiesel (B100) used as the blend component with diesel fuel.
Other specifications for biodiesel issued in Europe are EN16709 and EN16734 for (B20; EN16709 Table 1) and (B10) respectively. Cummins Inc. only approves biodiesel blends up to B20.
Other specification issued in North America is ASTM D7467. These specifications define only the biodiesel (B100) and blends (ranging from B6 to B20) respectively. Cummins Inc. only approves biodiesel blends up to B20.

CAUTION

To successfully use biodiesel, it is imperative that the fuel be of high quality and meet or exceed the specifications outlined in this bulletin or engine damage will occur.

It is the responsibility of the user to verify/obtain the proper local, regional, or national exemptions required for the use of biodiesel in any emissions regulated Cummins® engine.
Warranty and the Use of Biodiesel Fuel in Cummins® Engines
Cummins Inc. Engine Warranty covers failures that are a result of defects in material or factory workmanship. Engine damage, service issues, and/or performance issues determined by Cummins Inc. to be caused by the use of biodiesel fuel not meeting the specifications outlined in this Service Bulletin are not considered to be defects in material or workmanship and are notcovered under Cummins Inc. engine warranty.
Requirements for Using Biodiesel Fuel in Cummins® Engines
Cummins Inc. requires that all biodiesel fuel blends be comprised of petrodiesel meeting ASTM D975, and B100 meeting either ASTM D6751 or EN14214. Diesel fuel and biodiesel blends up to B7 must meet the specifications found in Table 1: Cummins Inc. Required Diesel Fuel Specifications. For biodiesel blends above B6 and up to B20, Cummins Inc. requires that the fuel meet the specifications outlined in ASTM D7467. These specifications are summarized in Table 7: Summary of ASTM D7467 Requirements for B6 to B20 Biodiesel Blends. Reference the official ASTM D7467 standard for more detailed requirements.
All Cummins® engines (excluding engines listed in Table 5) are compatible with biofuel blends up to B7. Engines that are compatible with biofuel blends up to B20 are listed in Table 6 of Cummins® Fuels Bulletin. Engines that are built after 1st January 2008 are compatible with biofuel blends up to B20, except the engines that are listed in Table 5 of Cummins® Fuels Bulletin.
For assistance in identifying the associated service model name:

• See Technical Service Bulletin, Cummins® Service Engine Model Identification, TSB130080. Review the associated Cummins® Product Technology procedures.
  • https://quickserve.cummins.com/qs3/p...tsb130080.html
• Use QuickServe™ Online and enter the engine serial number for the engine being serviced. QuickServe™ Online will display the service model name associated with the engine serial number entered.