Brand new ISX500 Cummins Failure

[MarkofSJC]

Rudy,

I think you've got all the dogs running in the best possible direction. While you may be concerned about your coach, Tiffen purchases many, many engines.

I truely believe that all three companies have worked hard to put out the best possible product they can. With this new engine design/update, clearly the "unexpected" occurred ~ which happens. The next moves by each of the company will determine just how high they maintain their repective "standards of excellence" Will it be the old Lexus - recalling the original LS-400 at the first hint of minor rear tail light issues, or Boeing's current Dreamliner escapade?

You've clearly demonstrated the ability to communicate logically. Rely on your gut instinct. Our thoughts are with you!

Mark

[corvettec3]

I really think Cummins will step up to the plate here. This thread is going to be around the net a long time and when a prospective buyer searches for info on this engine, what the final outcome is will obviously influence their decision making.

[flaggship1]

Originally Posted by v8dave

Thank you for the compliment.

I'm going to date myself here, the term "Silver Bullet" is from the Lone Ranger TV series.

The term was used widely in my career field and still is because a Silver Bullet is costly, hard to come by and you don't use them on the easy problems. I worked in the Aerospace industry on the electronics side--retired now.

I may only be 58 but spent many an hour with Hi Ho Silver. Away. Was simply bowing to the quality of this coach. Silver almost seemed light by comparison. It is truly magnificent looking coach inside and out. If you have not seen the interior pics. They are posted.

I would also add that silver bullets may be useful with werwolves and possibly vampires. Looks like Rudy can keep his powder dry for a bit and keep the silver bullets in reserve for now. That's good news.

[spike45]

Originally Posted by Steve Ownby

Just to get another expert opinion, consider posting this on the IRV2.com Cummins group. Make " help Spike45". Or send a pm to Spike45. He just retired as a field engineer for Fleetguard which is a subsidiary of Cummins. He also worked directly for Cummins and Cat earlier in his career.

The point would be, he is well versed in Cummins policy and getting his advice early on about steps to take with Cummins or Cummins people specifically to get involved in this process. I have seen him give people on the forum the names, titles and contact info in cases like this and what types of information to pass along.

Thanks, Steve.

It appears that CRM in Avondale AZ has called for a DFSE, Divisional Field Service Engineer. Likely he is from Denver from that field office. I know who used to be the DFSE for CRM but cannot be sure now. Their job is high profile and many get an opportunity to move up or into bigger and better (???) things! CRM has their own DFSE (Distributor Field Service Engineer) who works very closely with the factory guy. When there is involvement at this level, you situation is being taken very seriously. In my 23 years experience, I have found that Cummins is very attuned to customer issues and desires to settle them. It may well be that the engine could be replaced. It will depend on the extent of the problem and ruling out causes not attributable to Cummins, i.e. chassis OEM or Tiffin, or even customer. These things must be investigated as you are looking at $25,000 engine replacement...it is no small matter. Cummins is fully aware of their reputation and have a strong desire to keep it.

RDOSTAL, you should be able to get the name of the factory field engineer. These folks are an elite group. At least up until a couple years ago, there were only 6 of them in the US and one or two in Canada. They are busy but a very thorough and professional. They will make the determination on how the repair or replacement will proceed, not Cummins Rocky Mountain. Warranty work on Cummins engines is guided by a group in Columbus, Indiana called 'RapidServe'. They work with the DFSE.

Lastly, the ISX is a very robust engine. For a motorhome it is overkill but I guess if you have it.....flaunt it, eh? I personally know of an ISX built in late 2002 operating in a 2003 Kenworth W900 truck that currently has in excess of 1,300,000 miles and never a major repair issue. It is still running on the original engine build parts when it was born in Jamestown, New York. ISX currently is the most popular engine in HD operations in North America. Every major and minor fleet operates ISX. They are proven performers.

[RudyD]

It's been an eventful day. And it's taken me a full day to digest the plethora of information I have received from my supporters here on irv2.com

I've had a 1 real time conversation with Bob Tiffin who referred me to Heath Thorn who is the "Chassis Parts and Warranty" advocate. I plaguerized many of my irv2 friends verbiage in my resolve to cure this situation very amicabliy but professionally and ask Tiffin folks to walk hand in hand to support me in this process.

Frankly I'm numb from the response that Tiffin mangement provided me. I attach the response I received.

Basically I am back on my own with Cummins.

Hopefully with the resolve of Cummins fortitude of making things right, I am moving towards a positive solution I hope. Silver bullets with Tiffin turned into blanks!

I have a meeting scheduled in the next week with the Field Service Engineer and the Territory Manager of Cummins before my engine is "ripped" apart as mentioned by Martin Lopez the Rocky Mountain Shop Supervisor. I want to have 100% confidence that the solution is a fix of the problem and also a prevention of anything further happening. If this can not be guaranteed in writing based on the bandaid fix that they recommend , then I want an extension of time warranty. The many responses I receive from you my friends on irv2.com have been invaluable. It's amazing how Cummins would ignore the fact that the oil changed 2000 miles previous to my first notifcation might be hiding significant evidence of the first failure. They are ignoring any potential longer term issues of crankshaft, bearing, impregnations of shavings in moving parts, calibraton issues of like pistons, pins, parts, in the engine and the plethora of other issues that knowledgeable folks have brought up. The response I received from 1800 Cummins was a Huge sigh, breath and silence. No answer was an answer to my commentary with them. Immediately every possible local Cummins management personnel were notified

Tiffin has been a messenger of information and not walking hand in hand with me in a solution. What Heath has related is nothing more than I've received from Cummins local personnel in Phoenix. I am standing firm " what caused this in such an early lifecyle of this engine. Cummins local techinal team doesn't know.

Well, I'm paving my own path as a first time Motor Home owner to get to a point of protecting my investment and my security of not having another issue in the future.

I'll attach to you Heath Thorns reply. After investing close to half a million dollars based on the litenany of recommendations of Tiffan advocates I was referred to a 1-800 number at Cummins.

Really?

I am really not trying to get attention. I just want to share what the week look investigation has provided.

[Jack1234]

It does appear that Tiffin/Spartan are more interested in circling the wagons around Cummins than covering your back. Interesting to say the least!

On the other hand, everything (and each parties actions to date may be quite reasonable and according to proper protocol?) may be proceeding correctly. You wouldn't want a full heart replacement before you we're sure your cardiologist had ruled out angioplasty.

I am just a bit concerned that your side (team) seems a bit weak. On the bright side, at least your not thousands of miles from home in a motel!

1) Have you carefully reviewed and identified the specific clause(s) in your Tiffin/Spartan/Cummins warranty documents. I would imagine that these documents stipulate "only" that one of the three is responsible for making things " right". It is the interpretation of " right" that becomes akin to nailing jello to the wall.

2) If it was me and I'd spent the $$$ you've spent, I'd probably reluctantly be spending more $$$ for a consult with my "corporate" ( not divorce, real estate, immigration) lawyer by now...seeking his interpretation of the warranty documents.

3) About now I'd also be reluctantly looking to retain ($$$) a qualified diesel engine engineer to join my team and help me determine what's right?

4) I'd then start letting these guys earn their retainers.....I'd let Cummins & Tiffin know that they need not contact me anymore and they should direct all their communication through my "guys" who now had the authority to act on my behalf.

Perhaps this is s bit drastic and the members of your team may wisely council you to relax and let things unfold...I'd just more comfortable taking this kind if advice from guys working for me..... than from corporate engineers working for the other guys.

For me $500k is serious business and I'd want to be sure everyone understood that I was serious and was not about to be bullied or steamrolled. Hey good luck with these clowns!

[v8dave]

Originally Posted by Jack1234

. . .

4) I'd then start letting these guys earn their retainers.....I'd let Cummins & Tiffin know that they need not contact me anymore and they should direct all their communication through my "guys" who now had the authority to act on my behalf.

. . .

Please excuse me for disagreeing. But, I strongly recommend against doing this.

Once you "lawyer up" all timely communication is going to stop! The work is also going to stop while your and their lawyers trade paper work for the next year. During which time, you will be paying storage for your Tiffin at RMD.

Yes, maybe consult a lawyer about your options. But keep that private. These Corporations have either their own staff of lawyers or a Law firm on retainer. They can tie you up in knots you will never get out of.

One, hopefully final, piece of advice. Let the events play out naturally and they will do just that.

Cummins IS PAYING ATTENTION. They are going the extra mile, just like those in the know said they would, and that is darn good news.

[Jerry J]

Just take a deep breath and let Cummins do what they have to do. It will take time. I had a 425 hp ISL that had a porous block that had to be replaced at 30,000 miles. It took 5 1/2 weeks. They will replace only what is defective and not anything else. You are in a better place than we were as we were on the road. Our engine had to come out the bottom and maybe yours can come out the rear or there is room for the head to come out the top.
This is only my opinion and can be added to the many others.

[Route 66]

Admin hat off, longtime forum reader hat on.

V8dave is correct. In the past, other members have reported the same. Some have posted highly critical rants and later regretted it. In public, it's always better to take take high road.

Jerry J is also correct. Cummins will do what the warranty states is required.

However, sometimes they all will do more than is required depending on help and support from the other players.

Don't be afraid to ask for anything. They may say yes.

Good Luck.

[RudyD]

Im on firm ground have the right folks involved and need to see what transpires these next few days after we see more parts coming out of the engine.

I do stand firm that all companies involved in the manufacture of this coach need to stand tall and keep participating rather than listen from the audience.

I'll keep everyone here informed along the way. Just having you all listening and watching what plays out shows Cummins what their customers need and want.
Enjoy Superbowl Sunday everyone.

[flaggship1]

Hey Rudy - you enjoy the game too. Pleasant diversion from all this. Just think - next year you'll be able to throw a first class Super Bowl tailgate party in a first glass coach from Anywhere USA. Keep smiling!

[Papa_Jim]

Originally Posted by chuydog

Small bits of metal shavings usually go to where the tolerances are the tightest and I disagree with the thought of "flushing" and "rinsing" the oil system as a way to clean your brand new engine. These small bits embed themselves in cam bushings and any oil lubed and cooled area found in the overhead. I'm really surprised that Cummins is not supplying a new engine for your coach and not shipping back the failed unit to Columbus for a complete tear down and failure analysis by their engineers.

Just my own opinion, mind you.

Agree 100% !!

[palehorse89]

Hi Rudy, I checked out the frist photo's of your new rig when you got it and thought WOW! What a wonderful looking Coach! Like someone said you look really young(ageing well) to own such a Coach and I thought the same, but I also thought how lucky to be in a position in life to own such a nice ride, I even went back and looked at them a couple of times as your Coach is one that has really caught my eye out of all the Coach's and paint schemes I have seen. I hope everything goes well for you with this matter and when this matter is done(I am following your post) I sure would like to see some more photo's of your Coach , inside and out! Enjoy the ball game!

[Steve Ownby]

Originally Posted by rdostal

Im on firm ground have the right folks involved and need to see what transpires these next few days after we see more parts coming out of the engine.

I do stand firm that all companies involved in the manufacture of this coach need to stand tall and keep participating rather than listen from the audience.

I'll keep everyone here informed along the way. Just having you all listening and watching what plays out shows Cummins what their customers need and want.
Enjoy Superbowl Sunday everyone.

We will all keep you in our thoughts and prayers. It's a very unfortunate situation and I commend the positive attitude that you are projecting. I'm sure that's harder to maintain when you wake up a 2AM & can't stop your mind from racing.

Keep your wits about you and try to be a part of everything that's happening. I fall in the camp of not issuing ultimatums and let the fact finding work play out. Bottom line is, you will be a part of whatever ultimate decision is made.

The sounding board is standing by when you need us.