Brand new ISX500 Cummins Failure

[Mystery]

Rudy, so sorry to hear of the engine problem. I had a similar problem with a Mercedes Benz. I settled for a rebuild bc it was going to be just like new. BS when I went to trade that was the first issue brought up and it cost me thousands on a trade. Call the state legal bar and find an attorney that specializes in consumer litigation and get some legal advice. The manufacturer will try to placate you and tell you all will be fine. BS BS BS !! You spent a ton of money on this rig and need to know all of your legal rights. I do not advocate litigation or lawyering up but I took a beating trying to be reasonable and nice. You have gotten lots of good advice on this thread. I hope all goes well.

[RudyD]

It was the circular snap ring Not the compression rings. My bad on terminology

[Papa_Jim]

Originally Posted by rdostal

It was the circular snap ring Not the compression rings. My bad on terminology

As a life time diesel engine rebuilder, my two cents worth.

A circular snap ring that has popped out of the snap ring groove is a snap ring that was not properly installed to begin with. Many people don't know this, but these snap rings are directional. The snap ring is flat on one side, and slightly beveled on the other. The beveled side goes against the piston pin, the flat side faces the outside. The snap ring has to seat firmly in the groove, and the ends of the snap ring are supposed to be toward the top of the piston. Anyway, that's the knowledge I acquired over a lifetime of engine work.

Whenever we had an engine failure that involved one cylinder, we always removed all the cylinders. A few reasons for this. If one snap ring was improperly installed, there's every possibility that the technician that assembled the engine installed other snap rings improperly. Also, if the rod bushing was fitted too tightly to the piston pin, the bushing could seize on the pin which could exert enough pressure against the snap ring to force it out of its groove. So, there could be another snap ring failure in one of the other cylinders sometime soon. Considering that this type of failure causes a considerable amount of debris contamination within the engine, removing all the cylinders offered us the opportunity to better inspect all the connecting rod bearings and bushings, and the crankshaft, and also it was much easier to better clean the internal engine components. If any of the connecting rod bearings were damaged, we would roll in a new set of main bearings just to make sure things were done right.

In my humble opinion, replacing only the damaged cylinder is a repair, with the hope that no other cylinders fail, and that the debris contamination has not damaged any bearings. Replacing all the cylinders and any damaged related bearings is in fact a true in-frame overhaul, which is the very respectable way to restore a new engine back to it's expected new condition. A new engine that has been properly serviced this way can in no way be devalued at any time in the future because of this experience.

The cost to the manufacturer to go this 'extra mile' is minimal. The coach has already been opened up to get at the engine, and the tough work on the engine has already been done. Replacing 5 more cylinders and some bearings adds very little extra cost to the entire project.

I hope this works out well for you.

[firedoc]

Originally Posted by rdostal

It was the circular snap ring Not the compression rings. My bad on terminology

Ok, so the snap ring that retains the wrist pin in the piston failed? Classic .20 part destroying 20000.00 equipment😳

[chuydog]

I fully agree with Jim Tate and his position that replacing one cylinder is really a repair or patch job whatever you want to call it. He's right on the money with snap rings and whomever assembled one kit probably loaded all the cylinders. Therefore it is possible that there are additional snap rings installed improperly in your engine. I'm surprised they didn't at least pull all kits to verify the rest were done properly. All the bull work of getting to the guts of the engine is done so why not replace all the kits and bearings which is essentially an in-frame overhaul.

Just my opnion.

[rdkng88]

DITTO X 2

[Muddypaws]

I had a somewhat similar situation with a VW engine. My LAST VW.

A wrist pin broke, probably because of a circlip failure and VW chose to replace the piston, one rod, one wrist pin, and two circlips.

Less than 6 months later the entire engine litterally exploded. There was a 6" round hole in the crankcase where one of the broken rods came out. It looked like a grenade went off in there.

VW replaced the engine with a remanufactured engine and I got rid of the car a couple of months later. Haven't had a VW since.

The mechanic who did the work was my sister-in-laws father, He had 40+ years of experience.

The cost of a VW engine is nothing compared to the cost of yours. I would try real hard to get them to put in a new one.

[YC1]

When I was much younger it was my job to pull the head bolts. A long breaker bar, a torqure wrench, and the ability to press 600 lbs with my legs still made me break a sweat. In frame major overhauls were common in those days. A piston and sleeve were routine. Those old rock trucks were worked much harder than these rigs so I would sleep well at night seeing how they are doing the repair. It would be nice to get a bit of an extension on the warranty and I bet they just might.

[Jack1234]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Rudy, so sorry to hear of the engine problem. I had a similar problem with a Mercedes Benz. I settled for a rebuild bc it was going to be just like new. BS when I went to trade that was the first issue brought up and it cost me thousands on a trade. Call the state legal bar and find an attorney that specializes in consumer litigation and get some legal advice. The manufacturer will try to placate you and tell you all will be fine. BS BS BS !! You spent a ton of money on this rig and need to know all of your legal rights. I do not advocate litigation or lawyering up but I took a beating trying to be reasonable and nice. You have gotten lots of good advice on this thread. I hope all goes well.

Well....from my previous posts it is pretty clear that I agree with this post. Getting legal & technical advice from people you "pay" is not "lawyering-up" as some suggest. Even if it was ...so what! Are you really going to allow Tiffin & Cummins to totally dictate the solution to your 500k problem. It looks to me ( as evident from many of the technical posts) that Cummins & Tiffin are more interested in taking the easy way......getting this thing outta the shop ........and seeing your tail-lights.

If, as some have suggested, the engine was assembled incorrectly in the first place.....how can you even be sure you were responsible for breaking it?? Hey....you only had it for a couple of months and less than 2000 miles! From your posts, you have indicated that Tiffin has put twice as many miles on the Coach as you have.....maybe "they" broke it before you took possession? If it was assembled incorrectly in the first place....then maybe it was broken before Tiffin took possession!

I'd be real curious as to how an Extended Warranty would view this matter. Sure you have another +4yrs on your Cummins warranty.....but what happens 5-6yrs from now if you decide to sell or trade? If either the Dealer or Private buyer examines the service records and decides they need an EW to protect themselves.....will the EW consider this a pre-existing condition and exclude the engine from coverage?

Sorry for being so gloomy. You are the one closest to the problem......so if you're happy with the solution and comfortable about the future that's all that matters.

[Clayobx]

Rudy, I too have followed your progress from the decision to go Tiffin vs Entegra. I thought you made the correct move! I still do, your Zephyr is one fine coach. I am amazed how well you compose your actions and thoughts. I am not a master mechanic as many talented irv2 members have so graciously helped to direct you. One piece of advice as an old businessman, speaking with an attorney that has some expertise in business law would be prudent IMO at this juncture. Tiffin's lack of responsibility at this point is shameful, Bob Tiffin personally needs to step up to the plate and insist your brand new Cummins is throughly inspected and rebuilt to the standards jimkate suggested. Nothing less! Mr. Tiffin if you are monitoring these many post, as any smart business owner should, step up!! As a note, DW and I just looked at a new 2013 Allegro Bus in Panama City as a possible trade, don't believe we will pursue the trade any further at this point. Rudy all the best, this to shall pass. Keep us posted!

[Genset]

So sad when a perfectly good engine is screwed up by whom ever in the assembly process and for sure my life experience as mechanic agree 100% with Jim on the Snap Ring being installed backwards, any non idiot mechanic knows that little fact, so who at Cummins screwed that one up??
I am happy to have a proper ISM450 changed to 500 with Cummins blessing. $3,300.00 parts, Cummins Labor and ECM program upgrade.
Dave M

[RudyD]

I know everyone is anxious for updates as am I. This process has move along at snails pace updates and although Cummins has reported back daily on updates much of the time is the coach is sitting waiting for parts and people at corporate to tell them what to do.
The replacement head was not shipped as stated and is arriving today instead of yesterday. It seems an admin mistake from what I glean. I'm a negotiator for aliving an when somebody starts stammering on the phone the voice language tells me what happene.

Folks involved from a percentage basis: Tiffin - 0%, Spartan - 0 %, Cummins Corporate 20% and Cummins Rocky Mountain - 80%. Sad percentages but true.

Major parts repaired - Entire head assembly completely assembled (as my photo shows), Oil pump, Oil Cooler, Piston, Tie rod, Pin through Piston.

Findings - Very fine oil dust in oil filter. No lab analysis, Indications metal in oil is from the grooves in cylinder sleeve from the Pin coming loose. Ring that fell out? unknown if it was even installed. It was not in drip pan and not on the magnet in the drip pan that attracts parts. Since oil is only 2000 miles old, origin dealer has no notes in the records of anything gone astray. So we have to assume it wasn't there in the first place.

Warranty Extension : None offered by Tiffin or Cummins or Spartan
2 months from Tiffin would be the least and I'm going to have to start writing letters again.

Now Sadly another major issue non Cummins will have to be repaird. When driving coach since delivery, raw diesel fumes inside coach while driving mostly, in basement nearly all the time. Repaired 3 times on to fourth . this was the next repair on the list before the Cummins fix was initiated which made the coach undrivable. I escalated this problem to Bob Tiffin at the same time the Cummins issue arose. Nothing happene. IN preparation for coach going to Tiffin Repair facility, I contacted Tiffin and emailed them photos and videos and demanded a new AH system. Service contacted BT who personally called Aqua Hot sales man to contact me to replace entire AH burner assembly next week under warranty

Cummins is driving coach to Tiffin Warranty repair dealer on Monday to have AH burner replaced and some slide seals and all headlights replaced (a whole other story) I only interject this is because my daily routine is to follow up with people. So frustrating. Yes I do feel everyone wants my tail lights in the distance.

For some who thought about buying Tiffin as a new coach well the Zephyr is still a great machine when it works. But the industry I'm finding is the most disjointed bunch of inadequately trained service people I've ever encountered in my life.

I have put casual inquiries out there for Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act options. I have an extended warranty but as many have stated want to be sure my investment is protected.

[Steve Ownby]

Originally Posted by spike45

Thanks, Steve.

It appears that CRM in Avondale AZ has called for a DFSE, Divisional Field Service Engineer. Likely he is from Denver from that field office. I know who used to be the DFSE for CRM but cannot be sure now. Their job is high profile and many get an opportunity to move up or into bigger and better (???) things! CRM has their own DFSE (Distributor Field Service Engineer) who works very closely with the factory guy. When there is involvement at this level, you situation is being taken very seriously. In my 23 years experience, I have found that Cummins is very attuned to customer issues and desires to settle them. It may well be that the engine could be replaced. It will depend on the extent of the problem and ruling out causes not attributable to Cummins, i.e. chassis OEM or Tiffin, or even customer. These things must be investigated as you are looking at $25,000 engine replacement...it is no small matter. Cummins is fully aware of their reputation and have a strong desire to keep it.

RDOSTAL, you should be able to get the name of the factory field engineer. These folks are an elite group. At least up until a couple years ago, there were only 6 of them in the US and one or two in Canada. They are busy but a very thorough and professional. They will make the determination on how the repair or replacement will proceed, not Cummins Rocky Mountain. Warranty work on Cummins engines is guided by a group in Columbus, Indiana called 'RapidServe'. They work with the DFSE.

Lastly, the ISX is a very robust engine. For a motorhome it is overkill but I guess if you have it.....flaunt it, eh? I personally know of an ISX built in late 2002 operating in a 2003 Kenworth W900 truck that currently has in excess of 1,300,000 miles and never a major repair issue. It is still running on the original engine build parts when it was born in Jamestown, New York. ISX currently is the most popular engine in HD operations in North America. Every major and minor fleet operates ISX. They are proven performers.

Rudy,

I'm quoting Spike45 here because he mentioned the "factory field engineer". You need to be able to at least speak to this key Cummins guy. It would be better if you could eyeball him, but you should try to open a dialog with him. Cummins corp may have a fairly low profile at your level but they are and will make all substantive decisions.

CRM has told you they have not seen a ISX11.9 before. The ISX11.9 was the first downsized ISX and it has now been replaced by the ISX12.

I don't know who this might be, but you need a decision maker at Cummins to become your advocate. I'd get on a plane and head for Columbus, IN. The one best shot to get a resolution to this issue that is favorable to you is right now.

[Clayobx]

Rudy, the AH and headlamps are experienced by a multitude of new coach owners. I speak from experience. This will work out, headlamps etc. there will be other nit pickin' headaches to follow. In reading the Magnuson-Moss warranty act the magic number is 25K which certainly puts you in the ball park. Most importantly it places the litigation in FEDERAL not state court. This is a big deal as the stakes and prices of defense attorneys drastically escalate! Also, the act covers, if successful, your attorneys fees. Again, speaking with the appropriate attorney and having first hand knowledge of a precise informative legal strategy would IMHO be wise.