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02-24-2014, 07:20 PM
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#15
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Moderator Emeritus
Country Coach Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 7,902
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Gary, following up on your advice to me regarding my ES Compleat PG coolant. I recently had the coach at a large fleet shop that services all makes of diesels (for wheel balancing). I asked them to check my coolant. He said they had a special analyzer for coolant (I guessed a refractometer...not sure what they used).
The service manager told me the freeze point tested to -4F, nitrites tested OK, and there was evidence of 'slight contamination.' He said, in his opinion, my coolant was wearing out and he recommended a flush and refill. They use ES Compleat EG.
So, should I have them dump it and refill? Should I just go to Final Charge?
Thanks.
__________________
2007 Country Coach Allure Siskiyou Summit, sold/traded Nov. 2018.
2019 Grand Designs 384GK-R 5th wheel. Glen Allen, VA
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02-24-2014, 10:51 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smlranger
Gary, following up on your advice to me regarding my ES Compleat PG coolant. I recently had the coach at a large fleet shop that services all makes of diesels (for wheel balancing). I asked them to check my coolant. He said they had a special analyzer for coolant (I guessed a refractometer...not sure what they used).
The service manager told me the freeze point tested to -4F, nitrites tested OK, and there was evidence of 'slight contamination.' He said, in his opinion, my coolant was wearing out and he recommended a flush and refill. They use ES Compleat EG.
So, should I have them dump it and refill? Should I just go to Final Charge?
Thanks.
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I am leery of that place. Smells like a 'scare em and save em' tactic. If you are certain you have never added water then they either do not know how to check freeze point on PG or are distorting the truth. Why do you think it is time to change?
__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
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02-25-2014, 05:08 AM
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#17
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Moderator Emeritus
Country Coach Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 7,902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike45
I am leery of that place. Smells like a 'scare em and save em' tactic. If you are certain you have never added water then they either do not know how to check freeze point on PG or are distorting the truth. Why do you think it is time to change?
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My reasons for changing (maybe none of them good):
1. I am second owner of this coach and, while it appears the PO maintained it properly and well, I have no idea what may have been added to the coolant. Maybe the PO had a hose come off or some other leak and topped off with water????
2. When I first got the coach and called Cummins to ask a few questions, one of their recommendations on coolant was to change it at 5 years. I even asked if that was true if I only had 36K miles on the coach and he said, probably a good idea to flush and refill. He knew I was talking about a motorhome and not an OTR truck.
3. Maybe all of us RV'rs are nuts, but most everyone I know with a DP who is meticulous on maintenance tells me they had their coolant replaced at 5 or 6 years since that is what their engine manufacturer recommended.
Assuming I can trust my local Cummins Atlantic shop (they seem very knowledgeable), would it be reasonable to have them check the freeze point and ask them to drain off enough of the existing coolant and add new coolant concentrate to get the freeze point to spec? Will they do that or just tell me I need to flush and refill with new coolant?
I don't want to waste money if I don't need to.
Thanks.
__________________
2007 Country Coach Allure Siskiyou Summit, sold/traded Nov. 2018.
2019 Grand Designs 384GK-R 5th wheel. Glen Allen, VA
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02-25-2014, 01:32 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smlranger
My reasons for changing (maybe none of them good):
1. I am second owner of this coach and, while it appears the PO maintained it properly and well, I have no idea what may have been added to the coolant. Maybe the PO had a hose come off or some other leak and topped off with water????
2. When I first got the coach and called Cummins to ask a few questions, one of their recommendations on coolant was to change it at 5 years. I even asked if that was true if I only had 36K miles on the coach and he said, probably a good idea to flush and refill. He knew I was talking about a motorhome and not an OTR truck.
3. Maybe all of us RV'rs are nuts, but most everyone I know with a DP who is meticulous on maintenance tells me they had their coolant replaced at 5 or 6 years since that is what their engine manufacturer recommended.
Assuming I can trust my local Cummins Atlantic shop (they seem very knowledgeable), would it be reasonable to have them check the freeze point and ask them to drain off enough of the existing coolant and add new coolant concentrate to get the freeze point to spec? Will they do that or just tell me I need to flush and refill with new coolant?
I don't want to waste money if I don't need to.
Thanks.
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Make it easy for them and less costly for you. Drain and change. No need to pay for Restore cleaner. If you go with Final Charge and do a water only flush, you should use concentrate and get enough to equal half the total system gallons. Then just add water to finish up. After running for 30 minutes it should be thoroughly mixed. 50/50 Final Charge will not test to -34F as the concentrate is only 89% glycol instead of 96% glycol as found in conventional (non-OAT) coolant. If you have a coolant filter head, install a WF2123 zero units extended life coolant filter. Should easily last 3 years, the filter, that is. That coolant will last much longer, like 6 years easily.
__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
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02-25-2014, 06:43 PM
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#19
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Moderator Emeritus
Country Coach Owners Club Freightliner Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 7,902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spike45
Make it easy for them and less costly for you. Drain and change. No need to pay for Restore cleaner. If you go with Final Charge and do a water only flush, you should use concentrate and get enough to equal half the total system gallons. Then just add water to finish up. After running for 30 minutes it should be thoroughly mixed. 50/50 Final Charge will not test to -34F as the concentrate is only 89% glycol instead of 96% glycol as found in conventional (non-OAT) coolant. If you have a coolant filter head, install a WF2123 zero units extended life coolant filter. Should easily last 3 years, the filter, that is. That coolant will last much longer, like 6 years easily.
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OK. I stopped by Cummins Atlantic today and spoke to their shop manager. The plan is to have them drain, flush and fill with ES Compleat OAT. He reminded me it is labor intensive to do it right on a motorhome and said they allow 4 - 5 hours to properly flush and get all the air out of the system when they refill. He assure me they would use distilled water in the final fill process. Appointment made, wallet ready to be made thinner.
Thanks, again.
__________________
2007 Country Coach Allure Siskiyou Summit, sold/traded Nov. 2018.
2019 Grand Designs 384GK-R 5th wheel. Glen Allen, VA
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02-28-2014, 05:33 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: N VA
Posts: 202
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I buy nmy coolant in 5 gal buckets and buy the permanent coolant. All you do is test every 250K mi and refill with the same stuff as it does lose a little. It cost's $17/gal but it's well worth the investment.
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03-09-2014, 06:39 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Foretravel Owners Club
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 511
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Spike45,
Been reading many of your renderings and I thank you, now I have a few little questions.
!, Have the ISM, it came with the WF2077 filter, have never changed it, am at 100k miles, has the Red Texaco ELC coolant in both engine and Aqua Hot system. IS there any real difference between the Cummins ELC and the Cat ELC ? And when would you recommend changing it ?
2, One of our customers with a 3412 Cat has a pink looking antifreeze, as seen leaking/seeping at the water jacket heater, Kim Hotstart 6 kw. Question is it the Cat ELC, and what is the difference between the pink and strawberry color antifreeze you mentioned on the Cat page?
Many Thanks
Dave M
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03-09-2014, 11:58 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cookeville, TN
Posts: 778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genset
Spike45,
Been reading many of your renderings and I thank you, now I have a few little questions.
!, Have the ISM, it came with the WF2077 filter, have never changed it, am at 100k miles, has the Red Texaco ELC coolant in both engine and Aqua Hot system. IS there any real difference between the Cummins ELC and the Cat ELC ? And when would you recommend changing it ?
2, One of our customers with a 3412 Cat has a pink looking antifreeze, as seen leaking/seeping at the water jacket heater, Kim Hotstart 6 kw. Question is it the Cat ELC, and what is the difference between the pink and strawberry color antifreeze you mentioned on the Cat page?
Many Thanks
Dave M
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Dave,
CAT ELC is the first generation OAT coolant WITH nitrite and molybdate. The organic inhibitor is 2-ethyl hexanoic acid at about 2.2%. This is nearly the same as the Texaco Extended Life Coolant with nitrite.
Fleetguard ES Compleat OAT (ESCO) is a second generation organic acid inhibited coolant. It differs from CAT ELC in that ESCO has no nitrite and uses three organic acids whose names I do not care to divulge. However, it does not contain 2-ethyl hex as there are issues with coolants with that organic inhibitor. Originally, the Texaco ELC with nitrite was used in Cummins engines, specically the N14, predecessor to the ISX. The N14 had six gaskets that employed edge-molded silicon rubber to seal the lubricant and coolant passages through the gasket. The silicon rubber was destroyed in short order on engines that had the Texaco OAT formula. Cummins launched a major investigation that produced two SAE papers on why this happened. Cutting to the chase: Cummins required the use of a silicate fluid to coat the gaskets before the system was filled with the Texaco coolant. Fleetguard, naturally, steered clear of that issue with their ESCO product. The other nitrite-free OAT coolants also do not use 2-ethyl hexanoic acid for the same reason. I should add that use of the CAT ELC in a soldered copper radiator is NOT advised as the organic acid will attack lead solder. CAT ELC, ESCO, Final Charge and I believe the Chevron Delo Nitrite-Free are all strawberry red. Pink coolants have typically been conventional SCA precharged coolant such as Fleet Charge or Fleetguard Fleet Cool. CAT also sells a conventional coolant called Diesel Engine Antifreeze Coolant (catchy name, eh?). It is chemically very much like Fleetguard Fleetcool EX with nitrite, molybdate, silicate and borate buffer.
As for test strips, you can test the CAT ELC and other CAT coolant with test strips to get a determination of the nitrite and molybdate. Using conventional test strips on the second generation OAT coolants is a waste of time as there is nothing to be found unless they have been mixed with conventional coolant with SCA.
Now, about that WF2077!......It was never meant to be run beyond 50,000 miles. I really doubt that it is passing any coolant as the paper media has had the pores swell shut long ago. Use the WF2123 blank filter with Stratapore if you want a coolant filter for 300,000 miles.
Test the 3412 coolant with test strips to see if you have nitrite and molybdate or just nitrite. If nitrite alone, you need to keep it dosed to a minimum of 1200 PPM nitrite as measured by test strips like Fleetguard CC2602 or the Baldwin equivalent or Donaldson. Better to keep it in the range of 2400 - 3000 PPM nitrite which is 2.4 to 3.0 units per gallon on the 2602 reference chart. The same units level if the coolant has both nitrite and molybdate.
__________________
Spike45
Gary Spires
Retired Cummins (Fleetguard) Field Engineer
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