Cooling, Filtration and Lubrication

[OneRVer]

There is a Thread titled "Donaldson Filters". Some of us got way off of the topic by talking about cooling, filtration and lubrication. So I and one other member decided to start this thread for this topic. I put it under Cummins but should also include all diesel engines.

[spike45]

Under another thread, Hooligan posted a reply to my post about OAT coolants.

Gary: The OAT coolants you have listed can be a problem.
There are several OAT coolants that meet the Cummins 14603 (and CAT EC-1) requirements. I use the FINAL CHARGE Extended Life Coolant and the Detroit Diesel Power Cool Plus, Both are OAT technology, show 14603 on the label and they are the same formula, made by Old World Industries. They require no additives and only an extender boost added at 300,000 miles.

The current crop of OAT coolants available for MH diesel engines is now composed of a 1st and 2nd generation chemistry.

Generation 1 OAT coolants are: Shell Rotella ELC, Chevron Delo ELC, CAT ELC, and other brands similar. All of these Gen 1 OAT coolants have an organic acid as their main inhibitor, 2-ethyl hexanoic acid or 2-EH for short. In addition to this acid, these coolants also use a large dose of molybdate and a lesser amount of nitrite. These two additives are also common to several non-OAT diesel coolants.

Generation 2 OAT coolants are classified as 'nitrite-free'. The present crop of Gen 2 Final Charge, Shell Ultra, Fleetguard ES Compleat OAT, DDC Power Cool Plus, Chevron Delo ELC Nitrite-free. This list is not all inclusive.

Here is a good URL based on Detroit Diesel list of coolants that meet their specifications and would meet Cummins as well.

http://http://extranet.detroitdiesel.com/Support/On-Highway/Manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/Power_Guard_Oils/index4print_93K217.asp

Generation 1 coolants with 2-EH have problems for some cooling systems. On several Cummins engines, silicon rubber gaskets are used. Before the first Gen 1 OAT, Texaco ELC with nitrite, the silicon gaskets on some engine models lasted for 1,000,000 miles. That engine was the venerable N14. After Texaco appeared on the scene, N14 and some others had an exponential increase in coolant leaks. After a lot of study, it was determined the organic inhibitor, 2-EH was attacking silicon rubber. There are two unpublished SAE papers on this. Later, issues with Caterpillar engines surfaced where the crankcase oil was turning to 'black jello'. That did show up in some N14 as well. The cause of the formation of semi solid lube oil in these engines was leakage of the 2-EH coolant into the engine sump. Engines that had no issues with silicon rubber gasket also suffered. Most truck engines used silicon rubber coolant hose. Customers who ran the 2-EH coolant found the silicon hose liner disintegrating. The silicon liner was destroyed leaving the inner surface heavily cracked and leaking with heater cores being plugged with an 'orange residue'. For engines with EPDM coolant hose and no silicon rubber gaskets, there were no issues like these. The above problems are what caused Cummins to revise and reinforce their engineering standard on coolant. The key test for the CES14603 coolant standard is ELASTOMER COMPATIBILITY. The above coolants still do not meet that standard thus they are not formally recognized as suitable for use in Cummins engines, all of them.

However, some engine models, notably the ISL, ISC have no silicon rubber gaskets. The 2-EH coolants are used in them with little consequence, but still not approved. Cummins does allow the use of 2-EH OAT coolants if an additional liquid dose of a silicate fluid is used the first time the cooling system is filled.

Generation 2 OAT referred to as NAP-free OAT. That is 'nitrite-amine-phosphate free' but also silicate free as well. While borate buffer is not mentioned, these OAT coolants have no buffer agents. The hard lessons of 2-EH were apparently learned and applied to Gen 2 OAT. There are no Gen 2 OAT coolants that use 2-EH as one of the acids. A distinguishing feature about the new OAT coolants is that they use differing groups of organic acids. All of them do provide solid cavitation pitting protection. The drawback to these coolants as a group is that there is no universal test field test kit available to show the organic acid levels.

While testing is a nuisance for some, it did provide an easy method to learn if your system is protected. With the Gen 2 OAT coolants, you must be VERY careful to always refill low coolant levels with the same coolant. At present there is no data to show that mixing of these different OAT coolants provides the same level of protection.

What does Cummins approve in the new OAT products? From my association with Cummins Technical Center, I know that the Shell Ultra has received a pass as has Final Charge, ES Compleat OAT. I have not heard is the Chevron Delo ELC nitrite free has but I expect it to be able to pass the hurdle.

That is about enough for this post. Is your head aching yet?

[Mr_D]

Thanks Gary!

Just about to head out to pick up 6 gal of ES Complete ($25.58/gal) to replace the Prime I used although from reading the above it appears Prime would be OK if I used a dose of silicate fluid. OK, what is a silicate fluid? The DCA 4 I added or?

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D Thanks Gary! Just about to head out to pick up 6 gal of ES Complete ($25.58/gal) to replace the Prime I used although from reading the above it appears Prime would be OK if I used a dose of silicate fluid. OK, what is a silicate fluid? The DCA 4 I added or?

Good grief! who charges that much?.....a Cummins distirbutor would be my guess. You can call 800-223-4583 and follow the menus to Customer Assistance and ask for Fleetguard distributors in your area. I know our products are available at International Truck, Kenworth, Peterbilt, Volvo, John Deere, Case dealers as well as some independents like Fleet Pride. I am sure you can get a better price than that.

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D Thanks Gary! Just about to head out to pick up 6 gal of ES Complete ($25.58/gal) to replace the Prime I used although from reading the above it appears Prime would be OK if I used a dose of silicate fluid. OK, what is a silicate fluid? The DCA 4 I added or?

Silicate fluid is supplied by Shell and Chevron. It is a major blast of sodium silicate used to provide elastomer protection against the organic acid used in Generation 1 OAT coolants like Shell Rotella ELC with nitrite, Chevron Delo ELC with nitrite, CAT ELC.

ChevronTexaco Silicate Fluid
Silicate Fluid Order Program
Leah Golden
PO Box 421559
Houston, TX 77242-1559
phone: 800-346-9041
fax: 713-960-0049


DCA4 while it has silicate does not have nearly enough for this situation. The problem with adding silicate fluid now is that you have been running this ELC for some time. The fluid has to go in BEFORE filling with OAT.

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 DCA4 while it has silicate does not have nearly enough for this situation. The problem with adding silicate fluid now is that you have been running this ELC for some time. The fluid has to go in BEFORE filling with OAT.

OK, so should I go ahead and figure on replacing the Prime I have in there ASAP or wait the two years and replace it then with ES Complete.

Yes, that price came from our local Cummins Distributor in Portland OR. I knew that price was high but it's still cheaper than ruining the engine!

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D OK, so should I go ahead and figure on replacing the Prime I have in there ASAP or wait the two years and replace it then with ES Complete. Yes, that price came from our local Cummins Distributor in Portland OR. I knew that price was high but it's still cheaper than ruining the engine!

Do replace the Prime coolant with anything more suitable than that. If you are not experiencing any coolant leaks, outside or into the oil, then just be sure you have a sufficient level of DCA4 in that coolant. The OAT acid in that Generation 1 OAT has very little cavitation protection by itself. It will need nitrite and molybdate to make it more like the original product from Texaco, Chevron or Shell.

Are you confused on this? I know, I know....I have said that Cummins does not approve of this or any coolant with 2-EH as the OAT inhibitor. Cummins does allow its use with silicate is first used on new filling. Too late for that but your (ISL?) engine may not have silicon rubber elastomers thus not much of an issue. Again, if no leaks and oil samples do not show elevated levels of Sodium (Na) or Potassium (K) then you are good to go AFTER you bump up the nitrite and molybdate level. Use DCA4 liquid at one pint per 2 gallons of coolant capacity. Forget the $26.00/gallon ES Compleat. I can't believe I just said that!

[spike45]

Is there any owners who have experienced aluminum radiator core leaks from pin holes in the core but not at the core-to-header joint? Any issues with aluminum oil cooler failure. The most likely chassis for these issues will be Freightliner.

[OneRVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D Thanks Gary! Just about to head out to pick up 6 gal of ES Complete ($25.58/gal) to replace the Prime I used although from reading the above it appears Prime would be OK if I used a dose of silicate fluid. OK, what is a silicate fluid? The DCA 4 I added or?

Man, I just bought a gallon of the CAT Long Life Anitfreeze for $12.00. Someone is trying to empty your pocket.

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 Do replace the Prime coolant with anything more suitable than that. If you are not experiencing any coolant leaks, outside or into the oil, then just be sure you have a sufficient level of DCA4 in that coolant. The OAT acid in that Generation 1 OAT has very little cavitation protection by itself. It will need nitrite and molybdate to make it more like the original product from Texaco, Chevron or Shell. Are you confused on this? I know, I know....I have said that Cummins does not approve of this or any coolant with 2-EH as the OAT inhibitor. Cummins does allow its use with silicate is first used on new filling. Too late for that but your (ISL?) engine may not have silicon rubber elastomers thus not much of an issue. Again, if no leaks and oil samples do not show elevated levels of Sodium (Na) or Potassium (K) then you are good to go AFTER you bump up the nitrite and molybdate level. Use DCA4 liquid at one pint per 2 gallons of coolant capacity. Forget the $26.00/gallon ES Compleat. I can't believe I just said that!

Ours is an ISC and I added 96 oz of DCA-4 to the 12 gallons of coolant (6 gal Prime and 6 gal distilled water) which would be the one pint per 2 gallons you state.
The coolant I used some years ago also contained the 2-EH and I haven't had any problems with leaks of any kind, none of my hoses are silicone and they are still pliable but and holding their shape just fine even when squeezed.

[OneRVer]

Spike, What is your knowledge on Water/Fuel separator filters? I currently use the Donaldson.

[Smitty77]

Related to cooling. Mr D's comment about the hoses being in good shape, made me ask. When/how do you tell for sure? (Not directed as challenge to Mr D, but just wondering some of you vets feel.)

1) How old is too old?
- 5 years
- 10 years
- 15 years
- 20 years

2) Any full proof way of inspecting?
- Exterior visual, clamps, are normal maintenance for most owners.
- Any fancy way to test, and check the inside?

I usually like to be pro-active on maintenance like this. I like to choose the time, parts and experts on my replacement items.

This is sort of like tires. Where some change at 5 or 7 or 10 years - are when she goes flat... We all do things different. Just looking for how others treat the hoses.

Our 2004 ISL was inspected last year at purchase, by Cummins Cal Pacific. All reported in good shape. When I asked the mechanic how he knew, he politely said 'experience''. I know newer compounds of today, make for longer lasting hoses. But someday, they'll need replacing...

Opinions?
Smitty

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRVer Spike, What is your knowledge on Water/Fuel separator filters? I currently use the Donaldson.

Fuel water separator filters accomplish the task by two methods that have proven to provide high efficiency separation and removal of water.

1. Some elements used a silicon fluid sprayed onto a paper media pack. The media has the micron rating required. The silicon fluid coalesces the tiny droplets into larger drops then allows gravity to shed the water and settle to the bottom of the metal shell or the plastic bowl depending on product design.

2. Some synthetic media does not require a silicon coating. The media such as Fleetguard Stratapore(tm) will coalesce and separate. Some Donaldson FWS may be a Fleetguard purchased part. Look on the shell of the filter. If there is words to the effect "Stratapore" or "Stratapore Inside", it is the synthetic media part.

If not, I have nothing specific to say about Donaldson. They are another choice. Their FF and FWS products work well.

Maintenance on any FWS is that it should be drained periodically. If you have a WIF (water in fuel) sensor, it should light up when water has collected in the bottom of the bowl or metal shell. Drain water with the engine shut off. Do not attempt that with the engine running. Doing so will pull in a major amount of air into the fuel system. It is a PAIN to get air out of the injection circuit after the lift pump.

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty77 Related to cooling. Mr D's comment about the hoses being in good shape, made me ask. When/how do you tell for sure? (Not directed as challenge to Mr D, but just wondering some of you vets feel.) 1) How old is too old? - 5 years - 10 years - 15 years - 20 years 2) Any full proof way of inspecting? - Exterior visual, clamps, are normal maintenance for most owners. - Any fancy way to test, and check the inside? I usually like to be pro-active on maintenance like this. I like to choose the time, parts and experts on my replacement items. This is sort of like tires. Where some change at 5 or 7 or 10 years - are when she goes flat... We all do things different. Just looking for how others treat the hoses. Our 2004 ISL was inspected last year at purchase, by Cummins Cal Pacific. All reported in good shape. When I asked the mechanic how he knew, he politely said 'experience''. I know newer compounds of today, make for longer lasting hoses. But someday, they'll need replacing... Opinions? Smitty

Smitty,

Here is a good site for truck coolant hoses.
Hose - Products | Gates Corporation

Gates has some good training available on coolant hose inspection.

Coolant hose is hard to forecast a lifespan on. Coolant hose used in MHs will likely be either silicon (blue outer jacket, orange liner) or it will be EPDM (ethylene propylene) which in a Gates product is black with a blue stripe.

Silicon hose lasts a very long time typically over 6 years. But silicon hose is prone to coolant leaks because it does not stick to the connection it is mounted on. Loosening the hose clamp and a light twist and it is off. EPDM hose lasts for about the same time. Its weak point is that it will disintegrate if oil gets into the coolant. EPDM does not leak easily like silicon as it has some adhesion to the connections. EPDM is gaining popularity in HD trucking applications where this hose type will see in excess of 400,000 miles of use.

Look to see if your radiator and heater hose is blue or black. The Blue is most likely silicon or may say "Flexfab". It will outlast your MH. The EPDM hose lasts longer than you will have your MH. Personally, I would go with EPDM as the leakage issue with silicon hose can cause other major problems due to low coolant levels, replacement of lost coolant with the wrong coolant, etc. More than a few truck engines have had liner pitting failures directly attributed to coolant leaks from silicon hose. They issue was incorrect refill of low coolant levels with the wrong coolant.