Cooling System Issue Advice Needed

[Hooligan]

Mr. D-- Cummins CES14603 requirements for coolant have been around for several years. Check your container of PowerCool plus, it probably does list that CES.
I have a copy of version 2 of the Service Bulletin (3666132-02) from November of 2002, requiring coolant meet CES14603. The updated versions seem to address recent problems with coolant brands, flushing, testing and additives.

FWIW, I called tech support at Old World Industries, about 5 yrs ago. Could not find full strength Final Charge OAT locally, he said to use Power Cool Plus it was the same coolant packaged for Detroit Diesel, their part #23519397.

[spike45]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Spike:
How do I determine if the Detroit Diesel Power Cool Plus is correct for my ISC? I can read all the specs but the Power Cool I have was bought a year or so ago and has been in my storage shed so the bottles won't say anything about the new spec. I just bought new silicone hoses and am going to replace the coolant along with the hoses.

Detroit Diesel is unlikely to state their coolant selections meet any other engine manufacturer. There is nothing in it for them.

Power Cool Plus IS Old World Final Charge, nitrite free but not molybdate free. No easy way to test to see if the coolant still has the effective organic acids. As with any nitrite-free OAT coolant, it is imperative that you only top off with that brand and no other as each uses different acids groups and concentrations. NEVER use Dexcool just because it looks the same.

[spike45]

Originally Posted by WILDEBILL308

Find out what your total cooling system capacity is. Now fill 50% of that with the concentrate then fill the rest of the way with distilled water. You don’t need to know how much water is left in the system this process automatically compensates for it. I use distilled water to reduce any added mineral or other contaminates that could damage your cooling system. I have also changed the coolant in my 7500 quiet diesel generator to a low silica coolant. They had to change the radiater when I bought my rig because it was plugged with silica deposits.
Bill

The key to any coolant change out procedure is knowing the accurate system capacity. The problem with that is that many OEM chassis builders do not know exactly what it is as there are differences in additional plumbing depending on make and model. Your method works well too, I suspect. Thanks for the insight on that as I had not thought of it that way! The genset cooling system was plugged with SILICATE, short for sodium silicate found in LD auto coolants before they all went to some form of OAT in recent history.

[spike45]

Originally Posted by Greg121

So is there a way to tell if my radiator is so constructed and if my Cummins engine (ISC350) has the silicon rubber gaskets?

Greg

Aluminum radiators generally have the aluminum finish whereas many copper radiators have the core painted (usually black).

[spike45]

Originally Posted by Hooligan

A new revision (#06) to the Cummins Coolant Service Bulletin has been issued. The updated version is here: http://www.granlydiesel.com/fileadmi...2__21mar13.pdf

Section 3 discusses the extended service intervals and Shell ELC. The label on your coolant should list it complies with Cummins CES14603

The problem with believing any coolant manufacturer when it comes to saying their product complies or meets any engine OEM standard is that there is no posse of attorneys hunting these people down. The engine OEM, Cummins in this case, tells the customer it is the responsibility of the coolant supplier to stand by their coolant if it does cause damage to the engine. Same for Caterpillar.

I could put red cool aid in jugs and label them as being compliant to any and all specs out there. Nobody will come looking for me telling me I do not comply.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by spike45

The key to any coolant change out procedure is knowing the accurate system capacity. The problem with that is that many OEM chassis builders do not know exactly what it is as there are differences in additional plumbing depending on make and model. Your method works well too, I suspect.

Spartan says mine is 12 gallons however, Newmar added a coolant loop to the water heater so it does hole more. Since I'm going to be replacing the major engine hoses the system will be drained anyway. I'll go with 6 + 6 and top off with a 50/50 mix. I did buy 7 gallons as it had to be ordered. They told me the the truckers don't use the long life stuff as it usually boils out or overflows anyway.

[spike45]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

Spartan says mine is 12 gallons however, Newmar added a coolant loop to the water heater so it does hole more. Since I'm going to be replacing the major engine hoses the system will be drained anyway. I'll go with 6 + 6 and top off with a 50/50 mix. I did buy 7 gallons as it had to be ordered. They told me the the truckers don't use the long life stuff as it usually boils out or overflows anyway.

Mr_D,

Actually large trucks lose coolant from drivers who continually fill the system to the very top then put the cap on. Coolant heats up, expands and blows it out the vent tube. Repeat the process enough times and the precharge is lost or in most cases the issue is the refill coolant is just water.

Another major coolant loss for trucks and MH can be radiator caps. Recently, I replaced the cap on my Chevy pu with 358,000 miles on the original cap. It was not leaking but decided to change. The new cap managed to not hold pressure and cost me over a gallon of coolant. Bought yet another cap and had it pressure tested at the parts place to prove it held the 16 psi GM calls for. Other place I bought the first cap tested two of their new caps, neither would hold the rated reading. I said thanks but no thanks.

I am betting your MH does not have a coolant recovery tank like your car or pickup has. They should. All medium and HD trucks and vehicles should have them for the same reasons. Coolant expansion into the tank if the sytem is overfilled can be recovered rather than lost onto the ground.

Tip for you guys who think silicon rubber coolant hose is THE thing.....it is the worst coolant hose for resisting leakage and for minimizing coolant loss. Silicon rubber hose allows for the escape of water from your system as the water molecules can and do permeate the hose. Slowly, the system increases in glycol content evidenced by lowering of freeze point. And you will rightfully swear you only put premix in. Use Gates EPDM hose (blue stripe for straight hose, green stripe for molded sections). Silicon hose requires the use of the expensive constant torque hose clamps that require torquing the tension screw with an inch-pound torque wrench. Enjoy your maintenance hobby, guys!

[phinneyj]

Originally Posted by spike45

Why do you figure that way? If you are using a Fleetguard coolant with DCA4 in concentrate or premix, you have a very adequate precharge. Does your MH engine have a coolant filter? If so, you can add the maintenance dose using a WF2071 or WF2072 coolant filter with DCA4. No filter head, add the maintenance dose as liquid DCA4.

If you dose up to 3 units per gallon, so what. That is the highest recommended level on the test strip reference cards. A little over is not a big deal. However, if you are going to run at the lower end of the reference card range thinking you are as well protected as at the upper end......think again. With higher levels of additive, you reduce the chances of getting below 1.2 units per gallon if you have to refill the system in an emergency with water only.

On most engines (not ISL) the threshold for pitting begins at 0.8 units per gallon. ISL is more sensitive thus I would not let it get below 1.0 units per gallon. Your test strip maintenance instructions tell you to add a precharge on top of any coolant that tests at less than 1.2 units per gallon.

Do not be penny wise and pound foolish.

Thanks for the advice, considering your experience. I did it this way because I thought I had read in the literature that too much SCA was also not good. Probably misread or misunderstood. Anyway, when I added DCA4 I shot for a 2.0 mix. Sometime later this summer, after a few hundred miles I will retest and add as needed. I have documents that shows the radiator and hoses had to be removed to replace a broken fan hub a few years ago. Leads me to believe the coolant in the system is only a few years old and has low miles on it. I guess it just needed to have DCA4 added. Now I got a hundred bucks of Fleetcharge from TSH sitting on a shelf for when I do change it out.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by spike45

Mr_D,

Actually large trucks lose coolant from drivers who continually fill the system to the very top then put the cap on. Coolant heats up, expands and blows it out the vent tube. Repeat the process enough times and the precharge is lost or in most cases the issue is the refill coolant is just water.

Another major coolant loss for trucks and MH can be radiator caps. Recently, I replaced the cap on my Chevy pu with 358,000 miles on the original cap. It was not leaking but decided to change. The new cap managed to not hold pressure and cost me over a gallon of coolant. Bought yet another cap and had it pressure tested at the parts place to prove it held the 16 psi GM calls for. Other place I bought the first cap tested two of their new caps, neither would hold the rated reading. I said thanks but no thanks.

I am betting your MH does not have a coolant recovery tank like your car or pickup has. They should. All medium and HD trucks and vehicles should have them for the same reasons. Coolant expansion into the tank if the sytem is overfilled can be recovered rather than lost onto the ground.

Tip for you guys who think silicon rubber coolant hose is THE thing.....it is the worst coolant hose for resisting leakage and for minimizing coolant loss. Silicon rubber hose allows for the escape of water from your system as the water molecules can and do permeate the hose. Slowly, the system increases in glycol content evidenced by lowering of freeze point. And you will rightfully swear you only put premix in. Use Gates EPDM hose (blue stripe for straight hose, green stripe for molded sections). Silicon hose requires the use of the expensive constant torque hose clamps that require torquing the tension screw with an inch-pound torque wrench. Enjoy your maintenance hobby, guys!

Yes, our MH does have both a steel coolant surge tank as well as a plastic expansion tank. And, yes, if I overfill the expansion tank it does get pushed out. I keep the fluid at the cold full mark, then it's OK
Our MH already has the constant torque hose clamps. At somewhere around $8 each I sure don't want to have to buy too many.
Now I need to find the torque value for them.

[WILDEBILL308]

Originally Posted by spike45

The key to any coolant change out procedure is knowing the accurate system capacity. The problem with that is that many OEM chassis builders do not know exactly what it is as there are differences in additional plumbing depending on make and model. Your method works well too, I suspect. Thanks for the insight on that as I had not thought of it that way! The genset cooling system was plugged with SILICATE, short for sodium silicate found in LD auto coolants before they all went to some form of OAT in recent history.

Gary,
What you said is correct. “OEM chassis builders do not know exactly what it is as there are differences in additional plumbing depending on make and model.”
That is why I always tell people to contact their coachbuilder for the correct capacity. They designed it and should have fairly accurate numbers as to capacity.
Bill

[Hooligan]

Apparently Old World has finally come out with test strips for Final Charge coolant. No idea where or when they will be available. The article was dated March of this year. Measuring freeze point and protection of OAT's has been difficult. (not very precise?)

"NASHVILLE, TN. Old World Industries’ Peak Commercial & Industrial unit has released new test strips for its Final Charge coolant. The test strips, unveiled this week at the Technology & Maintenance Council’s annual meeting here, measure the organic acid and are not affected by conventional inhibitors such as silicate, borate, nitrate, molybdate and phosphate, the company said."

PEAK unit unveils Final Charge test strips

[spike45]

I saw some of their prototype test strips 4 years ago at a copper mine in Arizona. But had not seen them since on the market.

Spike45