Cummins 5.9 won’t start, stranded in paradise

[bwilless]

Thanks for all the help. I had to take care of family business today, lucky I have the toad. I’ll dig in to the issue in the morning.

I’ll listen for the lift pump and confirm if I have fuel at the injectors first.

[bwilless]

Originally Posted by twinboat

Check the coolant. It may have a low coolant shutdown.

Since it ran to get you to the dump site, I wouldn't be looking at the fuel system first. It seems more like an electrical issue.

I have an idiot light for low coolant, I’ve seen it light up when parked on uneven ground.

I’m hoping it’s a electrical related fuel problem. I agree it was running fine, so maybe a pump or the power to a pump?

[bwilless]

Originally Posted by Skip426

If the engine is a 24 valve , and the electric lift pump ( the weakest link in the fuel system , next to the VP-44 injector pump ) has failed then cycling the key won't help .

Somehow the owner or mechanic has to get to the lift pump to make sure it's operating. BEFORE the VP-44 fails due to lack of fuel.

Skip, what is the VP-44? How does it fail if there is no fuel?

Thanks,

Brian

[gvjackson]

Originally Posted by bwilless

Skip, what is the VP-44? How does it fail if there is no fuel?

Thanks,

Brian

Expensively! As the lift pump output decreases, the VP-44 tries to make up the difference until it can't. The 'normal' extra fuel to it is used for cooling, and as that decreases so does it's life. Don't ask me how I know. [emoji15] I have since added a fuel pressure sensor after the lift pump to help it not happen again.

Sounds like we have the same/similar rig. Hope your problem is something simpler.

[winniman]

You could crack open an injector and see if there is fuel at the injectors. If no fuel there, at least you will know where to start looking. If fuel is there, it would have to be air supply or electrical. I have the same engine, and it has two fuel filters. One is on top of the motor in a canister. You unscrew the top, and the paper filter is inside. The other filter is on the lower outside of the engine, and has the water separator incorporated into it. I removed the water separator, and bought the fuel filter that has the water separator built into it. If your coolant is low, it will derate the engine, but it would still start.

[Skip426]

Originally Posted by bwilless

Skip, what is the VP-44? How does it fail if there is no fuel?
Brian

Brian the VP-44 is the model of your high pressure fuel injection pump .
The lift pump on your Cummins runs continually when the engine is running , after it's 30 second cycle from key on.
The lift pump provides the VP-44 with excess fuel to lubricate and cool the injection pump . Even at wide open throttle the VP-44 returns 70% of the fuel the lift pump provides to the fuel tank , after it circulates through the injection pump as coolant.
Low fuel flow from the lift pump , will cause , hard or no start conditions and if not addressed soon enough, overheating and internal wear and failure of the VP-44. ( as gvjackson stated. )
In the 14 years and four Cummins fuel systems; used on the 5.9; that I took training on and repaired, while working at a Dodge dealership , the VP-44 was the most problematic , and even 12 years after retirement I think I could change one on a Dodge truck blindfolded. The lift pump , located on the side of the engine , failed so often that Dodge eventually released a kit to relocate the pump back into the fuel tank . Many coach owners have replaced the Cummins lift pump with an aftermarket unit , away from engine heat and vibration and installed fuel pressure gauges to keep the VP-44 alive.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/fass...ll-342813.html

http://www.drivingline.com/articles/...eries-cummins/

EDIT: Although the article post a bleak picture of failures , I'll add this info , in 14 years , I dealt with ; one killer dowel pin ; two 53 blocks ; two HPCR injectors and never did a 6.7 head gasket, but lost track of the number of lift pumps and VP-44s I replaced.

[bwilless]

After looking at the pumps, I came to accept the fact that I don’t have the tools or skills to take this on myself. My progressive insurance will cover most of a towing bill, so tomorrow I’ll get her into see a professional. Thanks for all the great information.

[Bigd9]

Keep us posted. We can all learn from this

[Mr_D]

A mechanical diesel requires 3 things to run
Air
Fuel
Compression

An electronic diesel requires the above along with
the electronics to control it.

[ladagobago]

Originally Posted by Skip426

Brian the VP-44 is the model of your high pressure fuel injection pump .
The lift pump on your Cummins runs continually when the engine is running , after it's 30 second cycle from key on.
The lift pump provides the VP-44 with excess fuel to lubricate and cool the injection pump . Even at wide open throttle the VP-44 returns 70% of the fuel the lift pump provides to the fuel tank , after it circulates through the injection pump as coolant.
Low fuel flow from the lift pump , will cause , hard or no start conditions and if not addressed soon enough, overheating and internal wear and failure of the VP-44. ( as gvjackson stated. )
In the 14 years and four Cummins fuel systems; used on the 5.9; that I took training on and repaired, while working at a Dodge dealership , the VP-44 was the most problematic , and even 12 years after retirement I think I could change one on a Dodge truck blindfolded. The lift pump , located on the side of the engine , failed so often that Dodge eventually released a kit to relocate the pump back into the fuel tank . Many coach owners have replaced the Cummins lift pump with an aftermarket unit , away from engine heat and vibration and installed fuel pressure gauges to keep the VP-44 alive.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/fass...ll-342813.html

http://www.drivingline.com/articles/...eries-cummins/

EDIT: Although the article post a bleak picture of failures , I'll add this info , in 14 years , I dealt with ; one killer dowel pin ; two 53 blocks ; two HPCR injectors and never did a 6.7 head gasket, but lost track of the number of lift pumps and VP-44s I replaced.

Ditto to all Skip has offered with ONE POINT to those who advise just turning on the key will NOT ACTIVATE THE LIFT PUMP, FOR 30 SECONDS> the Lift pump will prime if you bump the starter with the key. I have a fuel pressure gauge from Glowshift to monitor the fuel pressure being delivered to the v44 and just turning on the key does nothing for the lift pump. One bump of the starter and I get 17 lbs delivered tot he v44. My fuel pressure run continuously once the enjoining starts at about 12 lbs. Replacement of the lift pump is a teadous labor and the v44 requires in depth knowledge of the removal anf replacement procedures. A good mechanic takes about 3 hours to replace a v44 and also a helper. it would take about 1.5 hours to replace the lift pump for a DIY

[ladagobago]

Skip mentioned the dowel. When I took of my gear cover I looked specifically for the dowel and found mine had the modified C ring retainer. If not there is a kit to keep the dowel in place.

[Fuzzypeach]

We have a Cummins 250 LA 300. It will turn over but will not start. Some possible faulty components that have been suggested are: Solenoid, fuel filter or Electronic fuel control. Any other suggestion or troubleshooting tips?

[Skip426]

Originally Posted by Fuzzypeach

We have a Cummins 250 LA 300. It will turn over but will not start. Some possible faulty components that have been suggested are: Solenoid, fuel filter or Electronic fuel control. Any other suggestion or troubleshooting tips?

Fuzzypeach ; always best to give the year , displacement and engine model when asking for help with problems. ( 250 LA 300 ? )
Is this an older Cummins B engine rated at 250 HP or a newer ISB engine rated at 300 HP ?
I've worked on 4 different Cummins fuel systems on the B 5.9L engine .
The early low HP engines had mechanical lift pumps , mechanical injector pump and injectors; and used fuel shut off solenoids. Pre mid 97.
The first version of the ISB , used the VP-44 injection pump ; mentioned in other posts in this thread, that is an electronically controlled injection pump, fed by and electric lift pump , but has mechanical injectors, and shut down is accomplished by turning off the electronics in the injector pump . No separate solenoid. 1997 1/2 to 2002.
The latest fuel system HPCR , uses a high pressure pump to feed electronic fuel injectors , there is an electric lift pump , and shut down is by turning off power to the injectors.
Each of the four fuel systems have their own set of issues as far as starting and performance , so it's important to give as much info as possible.
It's also best to start your own post when your problem could be different than the original member's. As many will read the first post and not go through all the rest before responding.

[Fuzzypeach]

It's in a 1994 Kountry Aire. The info I gave you was off of a spec sheet. It's an inline 6, not sure if it's a 250 or 300. We think it's the solenoid or the Electronic Fuel Control. Thanks.