Cummins ISC Power Module Upgrade (+20%) Turned My 350HP Into 420HP ($700)

[TR4]

Originally Posted by Ljwt330

I think you misunderstood the concerns about EGT. EGT stands for Exhaust Gas Temperature. What you describe is EGR, Exhaust Gas Recirculation. Yes, CAPS does not have EGR systems, but EGT is a real issue.

I agree, a misunderstanding.

Originally Posted by imnprsd

To clarify, this a list of my equipment:

2004 Itasca "Horizon" 40AD
2003 Cummins ISC-350HP (CAPS Injection)
3000MH Allison Transmission

No EGT.

You have no EGR

Your chip is giving you more fuel to make more power without changing injectors, turbo, cam, exhaust system and cooling system. A cheap way to get more power. More fuel equals more heat. You can get away with this for short bursts, but for long pulls you have to be careful. When going over the Teton grade in Wyoming, (10% grade), I was at 1300 F for over twenty minutes. And that’s with easing off the throttle on a stock engine. I can just imagine the exhaust manifold and turbo must have been cherry red.

As for exhaust. I did a thread on muffler replacement;
http://www.irv2.com/forums/f112/muff...nt-337042.html

I still need to update my results, but this is what I’ve found. This resonator is practically a straight pipe. There’s a lot of hype about after market mufflers on more power, faster spooling, better mileage and lower EGT. Here’s what I’ve noticed.
EGT: Very little improvement if any.
Faster spooling: Very little improvement if any.
Mileage: Very little improvement if any, 8.1-8.3 average while towing after two years.
More power: No, based on EGT, this engine is running at maximum fueling for a stock configuration.

Drawback to the muffler:
Very loud outside when pulling a grade.
Loud engine brake outside.
Annoying drone inside at certain speeds.

Bill

[skypilot_1]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

Allison transmission specs. Looks like your HP increase is over the limit for the Allison 3000.

My Allegro Bus ISL (EPA10 /w 2 stage engine brake) 450 HP, 1250# torque is mated to an Allison 3000 tranny. Maybe the earlier 3000s were underrated.
I know @ 36.5 ft and 32k# I pass when ever I want too.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by skypilot_1

My Allegro Bus ISL (EPA10 /w 2 stage engine brake) 450 HP, 1250# torque is mated to an Allison 3000 tranny. Maybe the earlier 3000s were underrated.
I know @ 36.5 ft and 32k# I pass when ever I want too.

I cannot remember the webpage address, however Cummins, via the ECM derates the engine during take-off to prevent damaging the Allison. That is also in my Cummins engine manual.
FWIW, that Allison pdf is not dated, so one must assume it means all years of mfgr.
Sorry didn't mean to confuse the original topic with facts.

[Dutch Star Don]

"imnprsd"......No post about increased power or chipping goes unpunished by those who aren't willing to try it. I chipped the 400ISL in my 2005 Monaco Diplomat. Same method, add fuel and changed fuel curve. It was quicker, added 52 HP and increased mpg by .5 - 1.0 mpg.

As to EGT's, the Cummins engines DO NOT monitor EGT's. To check for temp, they monitor the Intake Manifold Temp. I included the IMT on my Silverleaf screen and never had any high temps or issues.

I ran the chipped motor and changed the rear radiator (no clutch) engine fan to a more streamlined model. That fan blade "returned" 25 HP on the ISL 400. My 37' Diplomat was a fricking rocket! I cry now with the 450 L9 in my new coach, very slow on the grades.

[imnprsd]

Showing a picture of a burnt valve doesn't tell us anything.

I have rebuilt a few engines over my years, so talk to me: What proof do you have that this so-called burnt valve has anything to do with Chipping your engine?

The Agricultural Diesel Solutions power module #12100 just came out in 2019. So I presume you are showing...what? .... A Banks valve? Or maybe a valve from a flashed ECM motor? Please elaborate.

You are NOT giving us nothing to go on... You haven't told us what engine that valve come out of... you haven't told us anything... but you are fear-mongering here that's what I call "SMACK!"

Dutch_Star_Don: Please clarify: Are you in favor of "Chipping" your motor without flashing your ECM or against it?

SkyPilot_1: Says's his stock ILS with 400HP has the same Allison 3000MH tranny I have in my ISC-350HP... so that suggests to me the tranny will handle the ISC Chip Uprade, but I think ISL owners should take a closer look at the Allison tranny specs shared earlier in this post.

Moving on: I think if diesel engines last 500,000+ miles on average; and knowing that most RVers never pass the 200,000 miles mark after 15+ years; then who cares about EGT temperatures shortening the life of your engine... if this is the case? You might as well be talking about how often you change your oil as far as I'm concerned?

I do concede that these are factors worth considering, but I think you can midigate these concerns by just not habitually putting your foot to the floor!

Again... until you people have proof; please don't throw SMACK around like it is gospel or fact.

My experience is that the #12100 Ag Diesel Solutions Power Model (for my ISC-350HP with CAPS injection) delivers in ways other flashed ECM upgrades in the past have not... that is if I assume there is some truth to what people say about EGTs.

I am surprised to hear the 5050XL (that is really a straight pipe) does not lower EGT temperatures! Can you prove that? I ask, because in theory if you take the "back-pressure" away from the turbo you would think the EGT would come down a bit... and maybe they do under normal driving conditions, but when you put the foot to the floor the heat is just too much.

So if the saying is: "No good deed goes unpunished." ...Then maybe EGT is the punishment; and you should be gentle to your engine. ...But shouldn't always be gentle to your engine?

I for one feel saver merging on the freeway knowing I can accelerate into the traffic lane if I need to vs. before I "Chipped" my ride.

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

Showing a picture of a burnt valve doesn't tell us anything.

I have rebuilt many engines over my years... So what proof do you have that this so-called burnt valve has anything to do with Chipping your engine? ...Let alone chipping your engine from AG Diesel Solutions?

The Agricultural Diesel Solutions power module #12100 just came out in 2019. So I presume you are showing...what? .... A Banks valve? Or maybe a valve from a flashed ECM motor?

You are giving us nothing to go on... You haven't told us what engine that valve come out of... you haven't told us anything... but you are fear-mongering here that's what I call "SMACK!"

Also, if diesel engines last 500,000 miles or more and the average RVer isn't traveling more than 100,000 miles... certainly not more than 200,000 miles... who cares about EGT temperatures shortening the life of your engine? You might as well be talking about how often you change your oil as far as I'm concerned?

I do concede that these are factors worth considering; I'm just saying that they don't affect your everyday RV life.

That said, in general I would agree that it's best to ease into your power curve and not to habitually put your foot to the floor!

Again... until you people have proof; please don't throw SMACK around like it is gospel or fact.

It has been our experience, the #12100 Ag Diesel Solutions Power Model deliveres in ways other flashed ECM upgrades have not... based on the smack of yesteryear.

Do you work for Ag Diesel Solutions, or did they give the fooler to you for free?

[imnprsd]

Jcussen: YOU SMACK!

... I also work for FASS.

... And I'm applying for a job with Jones Turbine only they don't know it yet!

What is with the "OLD GUARD?" Every time I hear SMACK about something new, the members with 4-5 "campfires" come out against it.

Is this what I have to look forward to? Is this what we all have to look forward to?

Whatever happened to keeping an "open mind." Always!

Don't SMACK IT... PROVE IT!

Jcussen: Do you work for Cummins? If so, why didn't you guys design your ECM to offer better performance? ...Give us a better Lift Pump? ...And Turbo? ...And why are our exhaust manifolds cracking (pre-2003)?

The CAPS injection system is a work of art. I have studied it closely and marvel at it's design. So simple and reliable in some ways and yet... Cummin's let us down in other ways. (ULSD fuel is not what I mean.)

This forum is the only way us RV owners can learn about ISC upgrades; and in so doing I for one can now drive the country side with confidence and reliability... which Cummins should have provided us in the first place!

These 3 upgrades are:

1) Install a FASS Lift Pump and bypass the stock Cummins lift pump. We suggest the FASS "Titanium Series" because it has multiple benefits in addition to 2 fuel fiters.

2) Install a 5050XL Reasonator in place of your stock muffler.

3) Add a Ag-Diesel Solutions "Truck Edition" Power Module #12100 if you have an ISC-CAPS injection motor (Pre-2003/4) and if you have an ISL... I doubt you need to chip your engine, because you are most likely already satisfied with you HP.

This post is for ISC-350HP owners. So don't muddy the waters by talking about other engines or deliver SMACK unless it is your own "testimonial." Then I/we will listen. Why? Because we need to keep an open-mind.

[Toribk]

Imnprsd,

I applaud your efforts to bring this to the attention of some on the forum who may be interested in engine performance upgrades.

However, on the flip side, understand that there are those of us in the mix that are retired, never in a hurry to get anywhere and could care less about our fuel economy or cost.

For us, we are completely satisfied with the performance parameters of our stock Cummins engine.

[imnprsd]

Thanks TR4 for pointing me to your post on the 5050XL Resonator upgrade. I wanted to reply to it, but the system says it's over 850 days old so it would not let me do that.

The only question I have on this subject is this: Do you recommend removing the stock muffler and upgrade it to a 5050XL Turbine? Was it worth the benefits?

And just to confirm: Did upgrading to a 5050XL reduce your EGTs across the board? (For the way you drive?)

This thread topic seems to be moving towards EGT concerns and I would like to continue that discussion since I know a thing or two about engine performance principles, but I am lacking in diesel engine field experience.

For example, in an aircraft you can adjust the fuel mixture to achieve optimal engine performance; and the goal is to find the right spot (on the rich side) that will not result in burned valves or an over-heated exhaust system.

However, in a diesel RV there are no mixture controls... and all your EGT temperatures seem to do is climb when you "Chip" your engine with a "Fooler" or in this case an Ag-Diesel Solutions Power Module... that is if I understand some people's concerns? So what?

How do you know when you have exceeded the maximum EGT in a diesel engine? ...Specifically, an ISC engine for example?

And as turbos go the only thing I was told to worry about in an airplane was to watch out for "super cooling" the turbo on a decent... which is when you typically pull the RPMs back and the excessive cold temperatures can damage your turbo. But we have none of these conditions in a diesel engine running in ambient temperatures at almost any altitude. So is there any concern with overheating a turbo by "Chipping" an ISC-350HP engine in your opinion?

I realize airplanes running on 100LL gasoline are different in many ways to a diesel engine, but metal is metal... Heat and cold and on-and-on.

I don't mean to be snooty. I'm serious. I recognize you and Smitty have great knowledge when it comes to helping the rest of us understand diesel and RV ownership. You have helped me lots of times. So please explain it us! So we can understand.

For example, if you can't see the EGT fall from "peak;" then how do you know you are exceeding the upper limit?

Where do you find recommended EGT value for a Cummins-ISC-350HP engine? Do they exist?

Or are there recommended ranges? ...Because I don't understand all this concern over EGT increasing in temperature? So what! ...Tell me diesel EGT are hotter than 100LL burning engines... and diesel EGTs can melt metal. Is this so?

Note: In an aircraft, we had stainless steel headers... basically a straight pipe... and if high EGTs... if LONG LASTING could burn an hole in those straight pipes, but this would always happen long before high EGTs would burn valves.

Again... it's my understanding that burned valves have more to do with mixture control than high EGT temperatures. I.e., running tool lean caused burned valves not high EGTs.

In fact, aircraft EGTs were leaned to a peak value; and many EGT gauges did not even have temperatures printed on the gauge. An aircraft EGT gauge was a "reference meter" at best for determining how to set the right fuel mixture. In fact, a too lean of mixture would cause the EGT temperature to DROP!!!

And if we talk about diesel engine exhaust manifolds... these are big cast iron things that can handle any EGT spikes... so what's the real story?

Maybe all we have to do is not floor your engine when going over a steep an long grade? Will this keep us in the "safe zone?"

Everything considered, what's the harm in "Chipping" your engine with a "Fooler" if the rule of thumb is to always baby your engine."

[imnprsd]

Toribk Says: However, on the flip side, understand that there are those of us in the mix that are retired, never in a hurry to get anywhere and could care less about our fuel economy or cost.

For us, we are completely satisfied with the performance parameters of our stock Cummins engine.

OP REPLY: Yes. I agree with you and respect this position. in fact I also subscribe to it! ...Being retired and all. Bored really!

In fact, the first thing I told the people at Ag-Diesel, after my first test drive, is this:
"You guys should not offer the 30% HP increase, because it is unnecessary and potentially dangerous!

This is because everything happens faster when you speed. And your mind start sto focus straight ahead. This is called "tunnel vision" and it's not good.

You also might like to know, before I "Chipped" my engine I often traveled at 55-63 MPH so I could relax more. And definitely... I would get off the freeways and travel the back roads. Sometimes all by myself for miles on end. YES! We do enjoy that!

I admit... I got bored about the time I decided to buy the "Chip." I also just installed the FASS "TS" Pump and that upgrade was so successful it got my "motor head" going. ...And no one had anything good to say about upgrading to a Power Module like Ag-Diesel Solutions offered.

What sold me was their success with farm tractors outfitted with ISC motors. That and their design team understood how CAPS injections systems work. ...You can't even find someone at Cummins who can tell you that these days.

...And that's when I decided to throw $700 at this "Chip Idea." ...Which is cheap by all accounts, wouldn't you say? (Especially for us rich, retired folks.)

Then my curiosity took over and I had to find out for myself if this Ag-Diesel "Fooler-Chip" was worth it or not.

In fact, I was looking for an excuse to travel north; and when the Ag-Diesel crew invited me to Indiana, and said they would put my RV on their Dyno at no extra charge, I could not refuse. (...Besides it was on my way to Chicago, and boy did I have a good time there! ...But that's another story! My first Cubs game!)

Side comment: The FASS TS Pump upgrade is definitely something I recommend everyone do. This upgrade is a matter of reliability and safety... never mind making sure your CAPS injection system doesn't quit on you some day due to fuel starvation (lack of lubrication time-and-time again). And I think most people don't know about it. I also think that if you install a FASS TS Lift Pump you will not have to worry about ULSD fuels, which is very important if you are a CAPS owner too. But I digress.

Chipping your engine is not... repeat NOT... for everyone. However, I was impressed. And I thought I would share my experiences with everyone who might think their coach is a bit under-powered, because that is in my opinion. In fact, for the first year I thought my CAT330 had better acceleration; and it probably did. I also got 10MPG in that 38' National coach and I missed that.

Moreover, I guess I'm one of those people who feel better when my engine runs better. What can I say?

Most certainly, the $700 I spent on the Chip was "well spent" in my opinion, and I do recommend other people buy it.. that is if they have an extra $700.

Or in the event you can't stand getting 7.2 MPG, then imagine how you feel when you start getting 8.5 MPG! I know that made me feel great!

And there's another plus. 1 extra MPG means I can travel 80 more miles between tank fill-ups. And yes... on my long trips this makes a difference. Plus every time I filled up I was putting $15 back in my pocket in fuel savings.

I'm guessing all of us fill up 10x-20x/season. So after a while you could make the argument the saving in fuel will pay for the Chip sooner-or-later. But who cares when you can enjoy more HP the whole day long; and boy does it get "long" on some days!

Besides... "You don't know what you don't know."

I mean... how do you know you won't like the extra HP until you try it?

All I am trying to do here is save anyone who thought about "Chipping" their engine the time and cost of putting their RV on a Dyno, which you will now... not have to do, since I am telling you everything you need to know about installing a Ag-Diesel "Power Model" #12100 to your Cummins ISC-350HP-CAPS engine.

And so... by all means... take it slow... get off the freeway... travel the back roads... and take your time getting there!

I spent this last May-September in my RV... traveling over 9,000 miles; and the last part, the part after I "Chipped" my engine, was the most enjoyable part. I'm just saying!

I hope you enjoyed my story... and I hope we learn something about the EGT concerns other people are raising as flags. I will also consult with my contacts at Agricultural Diesel Solutions to see what they say and will report back.

[MnTom]

Wow.....You do realize that the picture I posted is a MELTED PISTON? Do you know what temperature aluminum melts at? Do you understand that a diesel engine is different than your lawn mower engine? Obviously you sir are getting paid to promote a product and are going to do all you can to debunk the science of running too high exhaust gas temperatures. Since you claim to need proof other than pictures, take a look at this site: https://official.bankspower.com/tech...-is-important/

[TR4]

[QUOTE=imnprsd;5013468]Thanks TR4 for pointing me to your post on the 5050XL Resonator upgrade. I wanted to reply to it, but the system says it's over 850 days old so it would not let me do that.

The only question I have on this subject is this: Do you recommend removing the stock muffler and upgrade it to a 5050XL Turbine? Was it worth the benefits?

I didn’t use the 5050xl, I installed the Walker resonator. It’s basically straight through. I didn’t have the space for the XL (to long). The Aero Turbine (shorter resonator version) would have fit but was more money. If I could fit the XL, I’d it give a try and see if it would eliminate the drone I’m experiencing with the Walker. The original Donaldson muffler has a very good flow rate, and this might be why I saw little improvement. This small improvement was not worth the extra noise. Now by increasing the HP, you increase the CFM out the tail pipe, and a less restrictive muffler would help. If I have time this winter I’ll replace the Walker with a quieter muffler and update the results.

And just to confirm: Did upgrading to a 5050XL reduce your EGTs across the board? (For the way you drive?)

Very little.

Originally Posted by MnTom

Wow.....You do realize that the picture I posted is a MELTED PISTON? Do you know what temperature aluminum melts at? Do you understand that a diesel engine is different than your lawn mower engine? Obviously you sir are getting paid to promote a product and are going to do all you can to debunk the science of running too high exhaust gas temperatures. Since you claim to need proof other than pictures, take a look at this site: https://official.bankspower.com/tech...-is-important/

MnTom, very good article regarding EGT. If I remember correctly, they installed a pyrometer with their performance chip.

Imnprsd,
Thank you for all your posts regarding your Fass upgrade and now your results on your performance chip. If my engine was an ISC, I’d probably give this a try. But, I’d also install a pyrometer to monitor EGT. Sounds like this upgrade would match the power of my ISL for those times when when you need that extra push (passing that semi on a grade). Since you installed a fuel gauge, might as well get a pyrometer and you should be good to go. I installed mine without taking off the exhaust manifold.

And remember, don’t be upset with reply’s from members. We all have certain comfort levels with these upgrades. Keep us updated, especially if you run into problems.

Bill

[thomasd923]

Originally Posted by MnTom

Wow.....You do realize that the picture I posted is a MELTED PISTON? Do you know what temperature aluminum melts at? Do you understand that a diesel engine is different than your lawn mower engine? Obviously you sir are getting paid to promote a product and are going to do all you can to debunk the science of running too high exhaust gas temperatures. Since you claim to need proof other than pictures, take a look at this site: https://official.bankspower.com/tech...-is-important/

I caught that also! far cry from a valve!

[skypilot_1]

Light travels faster than sound...
that's why some people seem so bright before they open their mouths!