Cummins ISC Power Module Upgrade (+20%) Turned My 350HP Into 420HP ($700)

[imnprsd]

So where do we stand at this point in this thread?

1) We know what the EGT does: It measures the Exhaust Gas Temperature for all 6-cylinders before the Turbo charger. So it is an "average" EGT measurement. ...And the purpose is to warn the driver... who's only action is to... back off the accelerator pedal.

2) More Manifold Pressure implies more air is being forced into each cylinder.
And what caused the turbo to spin faster was more heat produce from more fuel being added by the Ag-Diesel" Power Module #12100. This additional heat can be measured by an EGT... if only I had one. (Maybe I will get one soon.)

3) Review of Before & After I added the #12100 Power Module:

BEFORE / AFTER

346HP / 420HP (+21%)
950 Ft-Lbs / 1086 Ft-Lbs (+14%)
7.2 MPG Ave / 8.2 MPG Ave
24.5 MP / 25.5 MP (Just 1" difference?)
No EGT / No EGT

QUESTIONS:

1) If the +1"MP comes from the turbo spinning faster (above the previous 24" to 24.5" of MP my stock engine produced); then why can't I just keep my MP under 24"-24.5" to keep my EGTs within stock limits? Can I correlate MP with EGT?

This might not be the best way to keep EGT under control, but it sounds like a prudent method until such time as I get an EGT. What do you think?

2) And since excessive EGTs are a function of time, then all I have to do is not accelerate to strongly or for too long. (For example, 10-20 seconds is all I ever need to merge on a freeway.) However, on a steep grade I can see how an EGT gauges would come in handy. What do you think?

3) Comparing the ISC-350 to the ISL-400 (Apples to Apples?) :

If the ISL-400HP engine uses all the same components as my ISC-350; except the ISL has a longer stroke... with the same block, heads, valves, pistons, turbo, exhaust system... only the fuel rail has changed; and this engine is rated at 400HP and produces ???" of MP; when why can't I increase my ISC-350HP to 420HP without worry? I.e, the ISL-400 is not melting pistons or burning valves as some people would have us believe?

4) If the turbo will open the waste gate to protect the engine, then over-boost is not possible. True/False?

5) My stock ISC-350HP torque on the Dyno = 850 ft-lbs... which is much less than the 1050 ft-lbs rated at by Cummins. So on one hand we talk about HP, but everyone says torque is more important. Why?

Note: We already proved the Allison 3000MH can handle 1250 ft-lbs so I'm not talking about transmission input torque concerns.

6) After I "chipped" my engine the torque is 1086, which is practically the same as what Cummins rates my stock ISC-350 at, which is 1050 maximum. So why are some so "flipped-out" over HP increases when my torque is virtually at spec?

Maybe if our very knowledgeable members can address each of these questions, then the rest of us can separate our conservative teachings from the facts.

Specifically, I'm all for being safe. ...And I love the sound of a properly tuned engine! And my experience with lawn mowers, motorcycles, cars and airplanes (VW's on steroids) tells me that all engines that run right... sound right and tight!

7) It seems to me that Cummins could have easily offered an ISC-400, but they choose not to do that for marketing (profit) reasons. Instead, they introduced the ISL-400 which has nothing to do the "L-10" type Cummins engines. Can anyone confirm this? (See notes below.)

My testimonial is this: My ISC-350 sounds like it is running better after I added the Ag-Diesel #1200; and the Dyno says it's running stronger!

I look forward to finding out how the questions above get answered in a constructive and factual manner.

Note: Wikipedia says this:

The ISL 9 and current L9 engines are not related to the L10 engine, but instead based on the smaller C-series platform with the 135mm stroke of the C8.3 enlarged to 144.5mm, together with 4 valves per cylinder, giving it 8.9 litres displacement.

In 2016 onwards, the ISL9 was simplified to L9, though physically it shares no resemblance to the old L10 engine: The current L9 engine is a stroked version of the C8.3 engine platform, while the current M11 engine is a stroked version of the original L10 engine platform.

[Vanwill]

Imnprsd,

You can answer these taunts until the cows come home, and they won’t stop. Folks have been successfully hot-rodding diesel engines for decades. The great majority of them have been satisfied with the result and only a tiny percentage ever suffered any unfortunate consequences. On this, or any other forum, you will encounter many PAP’s (Pontificating Apocalypse Predictors). The great majority of them will have had NO personal, hands-on experience and are only parroting what they read on the Internet…but will try to make you out to be a fool. You have researched your modifications, performed them skillfully, and they are successful. You cannot influence a PAP, regardless what facts you present. Let it go.

You seem to understand that EGT has no DIRECT correlation to either valve or piston temperature. Knowing your EGT does not tell you the temperature of either a piston or a valve. Further separating them is the fact that there is no IMMEDIATE correlation between EGT and either piston or valve temperature…it takes TIME for the effects of high EGT show up in valves or pistons.

HOWEVER, as I said before, I don’t think I would make this modification without installing an EGT gage. I’ve done it before, and it’s not a difficult task…the most difficult part being routing the 40-foot long thermocouple cable. And perhaps there are EGT gages now that communicate through common wire. Will you suffer engine damage without an EGT gage? Probably not, although you may find yourself not taking full advantage of your increased HP, and backing off the throttle in cases in which you intelligently suspect your EGT may be rising too high.

I hope you choose to install the EGT gage. Enjoy your modifications…judiciously. I plan to do the same on my own ISC-350, albeit with the installation of an EGT gage. Thank you for your detailed descriptions.

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

Imnprsd,

You can answer these taunts until the cows come home, and they won’t stop. Folks have been successfully hot-rodding diesel engines for decades. The great majority of them have been satisfied with the result and only a tiny percentage ever suffered any unfortunate consequences. On this, or any other forum, you will encounter many PAP’s (Pontificating Apocalypse Predictors). The great majority of them will have had NO personal, hands-on experience and are only parroting what they read on the Internet…but will try to make you out to be a fool. You have researched your modifications, performed them skillfully, and they are successful. You cannot influence a PAP, regardless what facts you present. Let it go.

You seem to understand that EGT has no DIRECT correlation to either valve or piston temperature. Knowing your EGT does not tell you the temperature of either a piston or a valve. Further separating them is the fact that there is no IMMEDIATE correlation between EGT and either piston or valve temperature…it takes TIME for the effects of high EGT show up in valves or pistons.

HOWEVER, as I said before, I don’t think I would make this modification without installing an EGT gage. I’ve done it before, and it’s not a difficult task…the most difficult part being routing the 40-foot long thermocouple cable. And perhaps there are EGT gages now that communicate through common wire. Will you suffer engine damage without an EGT gage? Probably not, although you may find yourself not taking full advantage of your increased HP, and backing off the throttle in cases in which you intelligently suspect your EGT may be rising too high.

I hope you choose to install the EGT gage. Enjoy your modifications…judiciously. I plan to do the same on my own ISC-350, albeit with the installation of an EGT gage. Thank you for your detailed descriptions.

VEI Systems
These pyrometers use plain wire from sender to meter.

[Vanwill]

[QUOTE=jcussen;5035480]VEI Systems
These pyrometers use plain wire from sender to meter.[/QUOTE

Jcussen,

THANKS! My last EGT installation was several years ago, and perhaps this was available even then. If it was, I overlooked it. This will surely make my upcoming installation easier!

Do you have any personal experience with this EGT gage?

[jcussen]

[QUOTE=Vanwill;5035540]

Originally Posted by jcussen

VEI Systems
These pyrometers use plain wire from sender to meter.[/QUOTE

Jcussen,

THANKS! My last EGT installation was several years ago, and perhaps this was available even then. If it was, I overlooked it. This will surely make my upcoming installation easier!

Do you have any personal experience with this EGT gage?

Yes, have had them on my last 4 coaches, 3 of them with modified ecms. As you mentioned, exhaust temps can rise pretty quick with engine mods and it tells me when to downshift or get my foot out of it.
I have the meter set at 1350 F to alarm which is a flashing display. You do have to supply 12 volts to the sender box connected to the probe in the engine room. Many coaches have a bundle of spare wires that run from the engine area to under the dash, I just found them, and used one of those wires. I put the probe in the exhaust manifold just before the turbo which I think gives a more accurate display, than after the turbo. Had mine on two ISM's and one ISC and one Series 60. Don't believe the ecm can read the EGT on any of these engines, so to me, a wise investment.

[Vanwill]

[QUOTE=jcussen;5035683]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

Yes, have had them on my last 4 coaches, 3 of them with modified ecms. As you mentioned, exhaust temps can rise pretty quick with engine mods and it tells me when to downshift or get my foot out of it.
I have the meter set at 1350 F to alarm which is a flashing display. You do have to supply 12 volts to the sender box connected to the probe in the engine room. Many coaches have a bundle of spare wires that run from the engine area to under the dash, I just found them, and used one of those wires. I put the probe in the exhaust manifold just before the turbo which I think gives a more accurate display, than after the turbo. Had mine on two ISM's and one ISC and one Series 60. Don't believe the ecm can read the EGT on any of these engines, so to me, a wise investment.

Always glad to hear from someone who has actual hands-on experience. I'll order one of these shortly. It will be great not to have to deal with that thermocouple wire.

I was always concerned about metal shavings from the drilling and tapping 1/8 NPT for the probe, but talked to lots of folks who had installed them with exhaust manifold installed. No one ever had an issue. I used heavy grease and a vacuum cleaner attachment I made. Had no issues.

Thanks for the help!!

[TR4]

[QUOTE=Vanwill;5035796]

Originally Posted by jcussen

Always glad to hear from someone who has actual hands-on experience. I'll order one of these shortly. It will be great not to have to deal with that thermocouple wire.

I was always concerned about metal shavings from the drilling and tapping 1/8 NPT for the probe, but talked to lots of folks who had installed them with exhaust manifold installed. No one ever had an issue. I used heavy grease and a vacuum cleaner attachment I made. Had no issues.

Thanks for the help!!

When I installed my pyrometer, I marked and center punched where I was going to drill. Started the engine and drilled the correct tap drill size. Then countersink the hole to the size of the tap. Shutdown the engine and let it cool. Tap the hole with a good sharp tap covered in grease. Tap the hole in stages, cleaning the tap and applying new grease (I did three stages). Finish up with a pencil magnet.
Make sure to wear safety glasses and gloves.

Bill

[Ray,IN]

[QUOTE=TR4;5036023]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

When I installed my pyrometer, I marked and center punched where I was going to drill. Started the engine and drilled the correct tap drill size. Then countersink the hole to the size of the tap. Shutdown the engine and let it cool. Tap the hole with a good sharp tap covered in grease. Tap the hole in stages, cleaning the tap and applying new grease (I did three stages). Finish up with a pencil magnet.
Make sure to wear safety glasses and gloves.

Bill

Your process sounds like a great alternative to removing the manifold for drill N tapping. Wish I'd known about it in 1996 when I added a pyrometer to my Dodge CTD 5.9.


BTW, that OEM 5.9 was derated to 180 HP at Dodge's request to Cummins; due to the Dodge automatic transmission limitations(found that out after-the-fact). I had a modified fuel plate put in the injector pump that increased HP to 260. Three months later I was having that AT rebuilt to withstand the HP increase.

[imnprsd]

TR4: Do you have any pictures that show where on the exhaust manifold you installed your EGT?

And I'm not clear about the part you say: "Tap the hole in stages, cleaning the tap and applying new grease (I did three stages)."

By 3-stages do you mean you drilled the hole small and then tapped the hole (larger) to the right thread size in 3-stages? Please clarify.

** If anyone else has a picture of their EGT location... and type of EGT used... please post it.

THANKS!!!

SIDE QUESTION: I'm curious, how much MP do you ISL-400 owners see on your gauge during full acceleration?

[TR4]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

TR4: Do you have any pictures that show where on the exhaust manifold you installed your EGT?

And I'm not clear about the part you say: "Tap the hole in stages, cleaning the tap and applying new grease (I did three stages)."

By 3-stages do you mean you drilled the hole small and then tapped the hole (larger) to the right thread size in 3-stages? Please clarify.

** If anyone else has a picture of their EGT location... and type of EGT used... please post it.

THANKS!!!

SIDE QUESTION: I'm curious, how much MP do you ISL-400 owners see on your gauge during full acceleration?

First go here;
http://assets.bankspower.com/manuals/45/96381.pdf

To find the center of the port, I used a picture of the manifold to turbo gasket. Like this one,


Resize the image to match the bolt center to center dimensions on your manifold. You can now determine the measurements to the center of the port using the manifold bolts as reference. (Or you can buy a gasket and take measurements)

Tapping in three stages helps to keep the flutes on the tap from building up with metal chips. Using the grease holds the chips in the flutes. Clean tap and grease at each stage.

Maximum boost on my CAPS at full load is 24

Bill

[Vanwill]

[QUOTE=jcussen;5035683]

Originally Posted by Vanwill

Yes, have had them on my last 4 coaches, 3 of them with modified ecms. As you mentioned, exhaust temps can rise pretty quick with engine mods and it tells me when to downshift or get my foot out of it.
I have the meter set at 1350 F to alarm which is a flashing display. You do have to supply 12 volts to the sender box connected to the probe in the engine room. Many coaches have a bundle of spare wires that run from the engine area to under the dash, I just found them, and used one of those wires. I put the probe in the exhaust manifold just before the turbo which I think gives a more accurate display, than after the turbo. Had mine on two ISM's and one ISC and one Series 60. Don't believe the ecm can read the EGT on any of these engines, so to me, a wise investment.

Jcussen, did you have this particular brand, VEI, of pyrometer on the last four installations you did? I went to the website to order one, and the website is shut down. Cannot get a telephone answer to their listed number.

I'm particularly interested in the "amplified" version of this type product and VEI is the only one I've been able to find. The millivolt output of thermocouples is so tiny that connections are always susceptible to any number of issues that interfere with the accuracy of the pyrometer. It seems to make great sense to amplify that thermocouple junction voltage AT THE SOURCE, then transmit the result to the gage head with ordinary copper wire.

Does anyone know of another manufacturer who makes an "amplified" pyrometer?

[jcussen]

[QUOTE=Vanwill;5043342]

Originally Posted by jcussen

Jcussen, did you have this particular brand, VEI, of pyrometer on the last four installations you did? I went to the website to order one, and the website is shut down. Cannot get a telephone answer to their listed number.

I'm particularly interested in the "amplified" version of this type product and VEI is the only one I've been able to find. The millivolt output of thermocouples is so tiny that connections are always susceptible to any number of issues that interfere with the accuracy of the pyrometer. It seems to make great sense to amplify that thermocouple junction voltage AT THE SOURCE, then transmit the result to the gage head with ordinary copper wire.

Does anyone know of another manufacturer who makes an "amplified" pyrometer?

I used VEI, also noticed Amazon says currently unavailable so maybe they went out of business.

[thomasd923]

I installed an Autometer with the extension module. Put the probe right in front of the turbo

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by jcussen

VEI Systems
These pyrometers use plain wire from sender to meter.

That's the type gauges I had installed on my '96, 5.9 engine with a modified fuel plate and 5" exhaust system, they worked well.