Cummins ISL 400 hp Power Chip Installation

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey Mr_D, .. Your response (as stated earlier) was the main reason for my post above yours asking about exceeding the torque numbers for the Allison Transmission. It would seem Allison would certainly have one over a barrel as they have already declared limits. Those are the limits the warranty lives within, so we have been forewarned. I have no idea what if any the implications would be with Cummins, but when I asked Cummins NW about increasing my HP to 450 from 400, they told me to wait until the warranty is over then do it. The increase would void the warranty (their words). Don't get me wrong, .. I've been toying with something like this myself and my warranty is slowly running out. I've had three expensive warranty claims on Cummins so far, one a turbo, so I'm not all that excited about rolling the dice (yet).

Exactly why I waited 4 years before putting the Banks kit on. I knew that the chances of needing warranty work were low at that point and I didn't want to have to hire an attorney and go though the courts if I did have problems.
But the point is: under the Moss-Magnusson Act the manufacturer can not unilaterally declare the warranty void. They have to be able to prove it in court that the modification was the actual cause of the damage, not that it exceeded some specification.

[DaveyD1]

I agree with CLNHSE I am a Dodge tech and Dodge and Cummins can tell when the computer has been chipped.At his point all warranty for the engine and drive train is void.When we get a engine failure, all parts sent back to Cummins and they do a very intense inspection,if they find that the fault lies with anything other than Cummins responbilty the dealership gets charged back.Some of the newer programms can hide that someone changed the software but can still detect that it's been changed Good luck

[jauguston]

There is always a lot "gloom and doom your engine and transmission are going to explode" posts when programmers are discussed. Almost without exception the poster has NO personal experience with the issues he quotes. Some folks just can't resist the lure of the keyboard (-:

I have a Cat C-7 350 with a TS Performance MP-8 programmer. Instead of listening to the gloom and gloom I did my own research. It may be harder with the programmer being discussed here because it doesn't sound like there are too many around. In the case of the MP-8 there are literally thousands of them hauling freight every day as well as tilling soil on large agricultural tractors. You can walk into many heavy truck dealer shops (I went to four) and ask if they have heard of the MP-8. The answer is "Sure we see them most every day". Second question "Do you know of any problems with it doing engine damage". "No not really they seem to work as advertised". From that research and discussion I found on several over the road trucker forums I am comfortable with using mine. It does what they advertise.

Does almost everyone but me rely on warrantee for their engine? My coach is a 2005 and long out of warrantee and that fact does not keep me awake at night (-:

Jim

[smiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jauguston Some folks just can't resist the lure of the keyboard (-:

You might want to be lured into reading the thread. It isn't so much about negative effects of performance enhancements, rather just the topic of how they might affect warranty coverage. And when a service station is asked to warranty an engine with performance mods along with a mechanical problem, then yeah, I think there may be some doom and gloom experienced there. But once you understand and accept the potential warranty impact, have at it, and I don't think anyone is saying any differently.

[jauguston]

I have read the whole thread and dozens just like it. The implication is if you use one of these devices you are going to have warrantee issues "BECAUSE YOUR ENGINE IS GOING TO SUFFER DAMAGE BECAUSE OF IT BEING THERE. Of the thousands of posts on this and other motorhome forums how many threads have there been where someone with a programmer on his motorhome engine had it blow up and the blowup was caused by the programmer. Huh!!! If it was something that happened often the gloom and doomers would be burning up their keyboards posting links. I don't really see them.

Jim

[smiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jauguston I have read the whole thread and dozens just like it. The implication is if you use one of these devices you are going to have warrantee issues "BECAUSE YOUR ENGINE IS GOING TO SUFFER DAMAGE BECAUSE OF IT BEING THERE.

No, that is not what is being said (or implied) at all, at least not in this thread. No one has said that a performance mod is going to damage anything, only that the presence of the mod may affect warranty coverage.

[Corkey]

Jim, ... I can't speak for the others, but my post had nothing to do with an upgrade blowing up the coach (engine or Trans). I had everything to do with seeking warranty compensation for a failed component and being denied because of those upgrades.

I didn't read a single post implying the upgrade was detrimental as you suggest, only warranty concerns for those still covered.

Personally, I'm eager to make some performance improvements, but not until I loose my warranty. So far Cummins has coughed up around $2500 in warranty repairs for me and it would be fool hardy to through away that kind of compensation.

When the time comes I will probably have Cummins program my rig for 450 HP instead of the chip and see how that goes first.

Cheers

[Coached]

It amazes me when I consider that I can go to just about any car Dealership today and I can buy a car with a relatively small ( 5 -6 liter) displacement engine producing 400 - 550 hp! It absolutely blows my mind that they will also warranty that engine for 100K kilometers (Canadian)?! Now, a bit of common sense tells me that, if they're willing to put that kind of power in the hands of so many amateurs like me, and provide that extensive a warranty, then that engine must actually be capable of producing much more than they're allowing in street configuration? So, all the parts are there along with the electronics etc. and I know there are some real after*market wizards I can pay to extract more power if I want it? However, I took delivery of the vehicle on the implicit understanding that this was the power output that the manufacturer was comfortable providing while still providing warranty, no? Just because there is additional "latent" power there to be extracted, by me, doesn't mean I can go ahead and extract while still expecting the manufacturer to continue to provide warranty? If the manufacturer had felt comfortable providing the extra power and warranty he would have done so from the git go no? If I modify or alter his design and build, why on earth would I expect him to provide warranty for my tampering? Whether the aftermarket changes can be demonstrated to absolutely cause damage all the time is irrevelant. If I'm the one paying the $20-35K to pay for the damage caused by my "one in a million" installations and fails, because warranty had denied me, then it just became a HUGE consideration for me. Alter the engine all you want but alter your expectations as well - Cummins didn't tell you to do the modifications, they didn't perform the modifications, they don't recommend the modifications; don't hold them responsible for your actions. As I have stated in earlier posts, I have had Cummins do the extra power thing on an '06 330hp and they did provide warranty; it was more money of course but, of course, I had greater peace of mind along with greater pulling (pushing?) power too.

[YC1]

After a 450 mile trip on mostly flat ground and running 60mph towing a light load of about 2500 lbs but being loaded to about 40K lbs I am absolutely astounded at the improvement in mileage and performance. I picked up 2mpg and climbed the Grapevine in Calif at 51 mph.

With the change of the engine fan from Source Engineering and the new chip I saw 10.5 mpg on flat ground and a solid 10mpg overall. I didn't take a picture of the computer readout so you will have to take my word for it until I get home.

I have an 08 400 ISL. I suspect the hp must be at least 475 now. The acceleration has really improved. I can only guess at the torque increase.

I watched my temps climbing the hills and they didn't move up much. That said it was very cool in that area.

I spent $500 on a safe-t-plus steering device. The $650 for this puts a bigger smile on my face.

[jauguston]

If you are using a engine management computer output to read your fuel mileage you might want to calculate it with the pencil method just to confirm the data you are getting. The programmers "can" screw up the electronic mileage calculations. 10 mpg with a 45,000 weight would be great but hard to believe. I hope for your sake it is true.

Jim

[YC1]

I'm running close to 40K lbs. And yes I am doing the math along with the computer. However I would find it hard to believe where this thing makes changes that the computer would even be aware it is alive. The fuel flow is measured with the distance.

And, based on my previous improvement with the fan kit I am absolutely positive I have a big mileage increase. I am as amazed as anyone that the claims are accurate. Keep in mind I was traveling around 60mph with no wind and very flat ground. The increase in hill climbing was noticeable as much or more than than the fan kit. There is a company that monitors this site that will be doing dyno tests shortly and I can't wait to hear from them.

[st687]

Quote:

Originally Posted by YC1 I'm running close to 40K lbs. And yes I am doing the math along with the computer. However I would find it hard to believe where this thing makes changes that the computer would even be aware it is alive. The fuel flow is measured with the distance. And, based on my previous improvement with the fan kit I am absolutely positive I have a big mileage increase. I am as amazed as anyone that the claims are accurate. Keep in mind I was traveling around 60mph with no wind and very flat ground. The increase in hill climbing was noticeable as much or more than than the fan kit. There is a company that monitors this site that will be doing dyno tests shortly and I can't wait to hear from them.

One tank of fuel will not give you a good picture of fuel mileage,you need at least 6 months of fuel usage to get a good record, on the dyno are going to use an engine stand dyno ,or a rear wheel dyno.

[JLAppel]

I have read with interest all the input on this subject that I originally generated . All good stuff!! Reading and sifting through the information I arrive back at square 1. If you want any improvement in performance and mileage, a good quality chip will provide that for you. I have 6 years experience with a chip that performed admirably on a 330 Cat in a previous motor home . While there are pros and cons with regard to how the chip will affect warranties, the ultimate decision on installation comes down to how far you are willing to go for the improved quality of your driving experience. I have attached (hopefully) an interesting and informative article from the current March 2012 Motor Home magazine entitled "Banks Powerparck Diesel Tuner Test". I suggest that it provides answers to many of the speculative discussions on this thread.
I expect to put my coach through a good test starting the first of March with about a minimum 1000 mile trip. I will update at that time. In the meantime, you have all been great with your input.

[jauguston]

Banks probably has some good products but for quite a few years he has relied on name recognition to sell his products at a very high price compared to others with similar or better products that are equal in quality but far less expensive. I shopped Banks when looking for a power gain for my 350 C-7 CAT. I was shocked at what they thought their stuff was worth. I purchased elswhere. Their products are not bad just overpriced. JMHO.

Jim