Cummins why not a Cat?

[Pusherpilot]

Originally Posted by tmw188

I have a personal friend that owns a large fleet of over the road charter buses and he has had so many issues with his late model units with Cats that he will not ever purchase anymore Cats in his buses. They have done nothing but cost him money and aggravation he claims some of which if I remember correctly pertains to emissions.

Which is probably why Cat is out of the American OTR market. Cummins core business is engines. Cats is large construction machinery. They simply didn't want to expand a lot of money to protect a small orner of their business. This is another example of the EPA driving an American mfgr out of the market.
Ron

[tmw188]

Originally Posted by Pusherpilot

Which is probably why Cat is out of the American OTR market. Cummins core business is engines. Cats is large construction machinery. They simply didn't want to expand a lot of money to protect a small orner of their business. This is another example of the EPA driving an American mfgr out of the market.
Ron

Yep good point!

[Moscow]

Originally Posted by tmw188

I'm very leery of Cats. Should I be?

Hello - we too are trying to make a purchase on a 2008 National Pacifica 36' which has a Cat 7 turbo diesel engine (the larger 40' models have the Cummins engine which we are more comfortable with). Oh what to do, what to do lol

[Mike_Harriet]

If Mercedes, Volvo, Cummins could alk meet EPA standards, why couldn't Cat? Worked on a lot of Cat's in my mining maintenance career, the answer was $$$. RV business was just not as profitable as selling big equipment to China and India.

[Smitty77]

Originally Posted by Mike_Harriet

If Mercedes, Volvo, Cummins could alk meet EPA standards, why couldn't Cat? Worked on a lot of Cat's in my mining maintenance career, the answer was $$$. RV business was just not as profitable as selling big equipment to China and India.

IMO the lack of an intelligent phasing of smog regulations by the Fed's, with a dash of ongoing insanity of California having to be 'different' caused a great impact to the economy in general.

From 2005 - today, at least three (maybe four?) changes in smog related regulations have been phased in. Each change, requires large $$ for the engine builders to first design, then build, then test, and refine as needed - and then finally 'certify' the engines to meet these changes.

CAT had just finished two of these expensive upgrades - when word of yet another new smog change was announced. As mentioned, their volume for OTR did not warrant the ongoing expense to go thru it again.

I used the word 'intelligent' on purpose, because while I'm always in favor up upgrading technology, I'm not in favor of it being done so rapidly and disjointedly that it drives a company to abandon a market. Say an every five year cycle, where the EPA invites in the large engine players to come up with agreements on the next levels of industry standards, would be a more sensible and economical way to go, IMO. Vs some person in an often politically assigned position without any real experience - making the final decision of the next change.

For example when California decided that ULSD was the way to go. They did not allow a gradual phase out of existing engines. Say a 10-15 year phase where both old Diesel 2 and ULSD could be purchased, dependent on actual engine need. The ULSD damaged engines and also reduced performance, resulting the the anti smog reduction intent of lower pollutants. (More fuel consumed to go the same distance due to lower performance. And damage to equipment causing many months of usage before final failure, also consuming ore fuel.) Toss in that ULSD did cause rubber hose degradation, and you add a safety problem due to fires from leaking rubber hoses over hot engine or generator equipment. Major financial impact to owners of pre ULSD was/is never compensated for... Ongoing financial impact from lower MPG. Over a 50 year period, IMO, very minimal impact on having a 'phase out' period from such drastic changes.

CAT? They made a business decision. I as a stock holder support their decision to exit OTR. I as a consumer get ticked, that one of the premier diesel engine manufacturers no longer are a choice for us to consider. It also lowers competitions.

All just my view of what took place in regards to not just CAT, but the industry in general.

Opinions and view will vary, and that is OK!
Best to all,
Smitty

[Flyin_lo]

Right on Smitty. I have ran many Cat engines in big trucks and always thought of them as a superior engine. They had more torque and stamina in a hard pull than all the competition. They just loved to lug. I have personally seen some Cat 3406 engines in the 400 - 525 HP range exceed 1 million miles and still running strong.
The emissions that were levied by the EPA put Cat out of the OTR market, mostly because Cat didn't want to have to deal with the EPA any longer. What a shame.

[tmw188]

So what do you think of the maintenance cost of comparable year models between the Cat and the Cummins?

[moisheh]

Just because an engine is yellow or Red does not make it good or bad. Anything larger than a C7 or C9 made since 2003 is something I would never recommend. Ask any trucker. They are problematic if they have EGR. If they have a DPF run as fast as you can. That system on a Cat never worked properly. Mike Hariet. Mercedes could not meet the EPA standard and pulled all of their MH engines as well as many OTR truck engines. You do not see any late model OTR trucks with Mercedes power. Navistar also could not meet the EPA standard! Any truck with a Mercedes engine is priced at almost 50% of one with a Cummins or Detroit.

[tmw188]

Originally Posted by moisheh

Just because an engine is yellow or Red does not make it good or bad. Anything larger than a C7 or C9 made since 2003 is something I would never recommend. Ask any trucker. They are problematic if they have EGR. If they have a DPF run as fast as you can. That system on a Cat never worked properly. Mike Hariet. Mercedes could not meet the EPA standard and pulled all of their MH engines as well as many OTR truck engines. You do not see any late model OTR trucks with Mercedes power. Navistar also could not meet the EPA standard! Any truck with a Mercedes engine is priced at almost 50% of one with a Cummins or Detroit.

I know a owner of a large bus line and he hates the Cats because of the DPF system. Says they have cost him a lot of money and when he says a lot it is a lot. They are involved in class action law suit now. H tells me to stay away from Cats altogether regardless of DPF or not. I just wanted to hear from some owners of the Cats and maybe some who have had both.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by tmw188

I know a owner of a large bus line and he hates the Cats because of the DPF system. Says they have cost him a lot of money and when he says a lot it is a lot. They are involved in class action law suit now. H tells me to stay away from Cats altogether regardless of DPF or not. I just wanted to hear from some owners of the Cats and maybe some who have had both.

I (as well as others) are waiting for a class action suit against Cummins on the 2007 EPA ISX's! Somehow they seem to have avoided one, so far. But that might be ending as more and more failures come to light

[Dakrism]

I would not consider a post-2007 Cat engine with DPF. There is somehiing wrong with the afterburner system and it is not getting any attention or support from Caterpillar.

I know owners with C9 engines that have had as many as 4 turbos installed since 2008 in some of these engines to solve an ignition problem in the afterburner.. Parts have been thrown at this problem but new turbos do not solve it!

If the engine is pre-2007 I would not be as afraid to buy however I do believe it may be harder to find really well trained technicians and I have not had ANY luck with the Cat dealers in the midwest or Florida. I have taken it in for service or a problem and they really stick it to you on labor rates and they have not done a very good job at fixing my of my coach problems so far. They really balk at even working on it.I am done with Cat authorized dealers!!

The Cummins may have some problems also but at least Cummins is still in the market place.

[docj]

Originally Posted by Dakrism

If the engine is pre-2007 I would not be as afraid to buy however I do believe it may be harder to find really well trained technicians and I have not had ANY luck with the Cat dealers in the midwest or Florida. I have taken it in for service or a problem and they really stick it to you on labor rates and they have not done a very good job at fixing my of my coach problems so far. They really balk at even working on it.I am done with Cat authorized dealers!!

CAT dealers like to work on their engines; if you expect them to fix other motorhome issues they may not be interested or even that good at it. That being said, I haven't had any problems getting competent people to work on my 15 year old CAT.

As for labor rates, if you haven't noticed, the current shop rates for skilled technicians in most places are $120-140/hr in my experience.