Def & cummins 450 isl

[Tsronco]

I'm new to this def stuff and have a few questions

1. How often do I need to put def in? Approximate mileage?

2. Do different engines use def more/less?

3. What happens if the def in my tank freezes? Can I still start my engine?

4. Is it worth it to look at the maxxforce engines since they don't require def?

This forum has been a huge help and I thank you all so much

[jimcumminsw]

DEF and or ADblue (UREA) have been around for long time in Europe. Several diesel engine manufactures such as GM, Ford, Cummins and others have chosen this to meet the 2010 Tier II Bin5 emission rules.

Most diesel exhaust fluid reservoir are heated by some means to prevent freezing of the UREA solution. It depends on the concentration of your solution. The freezing point of 2.0 g of UREA in a 10 mL solution of pure water begins to freeze at -6.7 (20F) degrees Celsius.

The use of UREA (DFE/ADblue) depends on the engine size in the vehicle. Most are sized to allow 7,000 to 10,000 miles between fill-up of the UREA tank. The UREA can be purchased at most retail outlets that sell's motor oil and such.

If you run out of UREA the engine will run, but when shut-off will not restart. There is a warning light that will inform you that you are getting low usually around 700 miles it will come on.

Jim W.

[Tsronco]

Ty sir

[vito.a]

Jim did a great job of answering most of your questions. For question # 4, Navistar ads promote their new Maxforce engines because they do not require Def. Not requiring Def is a plus, but previous Navistar engines have been plagued with serious problems and class action law suits. The current crop of Maxforce engines were aimed at the school bus market and with Navistar’s purchase of Monaco, they are expanding into the RV business. These new engines may indeed be very good, but my advice is to give them about 5 years to mature and work out the issues. Also, Cummins, Cat, and Detroit have well established parts and service centers across the country. Both Navistar and Mercedes are not yet established and very difficult to find parts and service. The story goes that a truck stop in Kingman AZ had all the service guys crawling around on the floor. One of them had dropped a small part servicing a new Mercedes diesel and they could not find it. Supposedly, there was not another part in that part of the country.

Best of luck with your new motorhome!

[Gary RVRoamer]

Navistar isn't exactly new to diesels - they used to sell their engines under the International brand name and supplied the old 7.3L Powerstroke base engine to Ford for many, many years. But they ran into quality trouble when they replaced that engine with the 6.0L and after a time Ford parted company with them.

That said, I'm pretty much a Cummins fan.

[JMonroe]

We now have 15 months and 8k miles on our 2011 Cummins ISL 450. I'm averaging about 2.5 gallons of DEF per 1,000 miles travelled. The most common volume/size of DEF sold (bulk sales at truck stops not withstanding) is in a 2.5 gallon jug. In other words, I add one jug of DEF every 1,000 miles. The tank in our rig holds 10 gallons so I could go 4,000 miles before I'd HAVE to add any DEF. DEF is widely available. I've been picking it up at Walmart and a couple times I've picked up a jug at the truck stop. The guage on the dash has four levels, indicated by a small light. When the first light goes out, indicating I've used 1/4 of my DEF (or 2.5 gallons) I'll pour the jug I have into the tank and make a mental note to pick up another at my next opportunity to do so. It's not been a serious inconvenience as some have tried to represent.

I did some research before we bought our rig. Firstly, 18 months ago there was not an EGR engine on the forseeable horizon with the power to motivate a 43' rig down the road, although there may be now (if not, there will be very soon). The objective information I was able to find (Cummins and Navistar will both tell you why their system is the best) gave an engineering based explaination as to why an EGR engine would have to be a bit bigger/heavier to make the same power as a DEF engine resulting in fractionally less fuel economy for the same power output (I suspect it would be relatively insignificant for most of us, plus the additional cost of the DEF (currently about $10 - $11 for a 2.5 gallon container, or about $2.75 per gallon if purchased at the fuel island at a truck stop).

The EGR system, at least for the large diesels is a relatively new technology, at least as compared to the DEF technology, which was introduced in Europe years ago. I have no doubt both will eventually become viable options, but I agree that the large EGR diesel has not yet proved itself, long term.

[buck62]

Originally Posted by JMonroe

We now have 15 months and 8k miles on our 2011 Cummins ISL 450. I'm averaging about 2.5 gallons of DEF per 1,000 miles travelled. The most common volume/size of DEF sold (bulk sales at truck stops not withstanding) is in a 2.5 gallon jug. In other words, I add one jug of DEF every 1,000 miles. The tank in our rig holds 10 gallons so I could go 4,000 miles before I'd HAVE to add any DEF. DEF is widely available. I've been picking it up at Walmart and a couple times I've picked up a jug at the truck stop. The guage on the dash has four levels, indicated by a small light. When the first light goes out, indicating I've used 1/4 of my DEF (or 2.5 gallons) I'll pour the jug I have into the tank and make a mental note to pick up another at my next opportunity to do so. It's not been a serious inconvenience as some have tried to represent.

I did some research before we bought our rig. Firstly, 18 months ago there was not an EGR engine on the forseeable horizon with the power to motivate a 43' rig down the road, although there may be now (if not, there will be very soon). The objective information I was able to find (Cummins and Navistar will both tell you why their system is the best) gave an engineering based explaination as to why an EGR engine would have to be a bit bigger/heavier to make the same power as a DEF engine resulting in fractionally less fuel economy for the same power output (I suspect it would be relatively insignificant for most of us, plus the additional cost of the DEF (currently about $10 - $11 for a 2.5 gallon container, or about $2.75 per gallon if purchased at the fuel island at a truck stop).

The EGR system, at least for the large diesels is a relatively new technology, at least as compared to the DEF technology, which was introduced in Europe years ago. I have no doubt both will eventually become viable options, but I agree that the large EGR diesel has not yet proved itself, long term.

Before DEF was used in U.S. to meet the new stricker EPA emission standards. All the major engine manufacturers use the EGR system to meet emissions. EGR stands for Exhaust Gas Recirculation. EGR was the technology that most manufacturers used to meet the first rounds of emissions regulations in 2004 and 2007. Most diesel engine manufacturers have adopted SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) technology to meet 2010 EPA emissions standards. “SCR is the aftertreatment technology that treats exhaust gas downstream of the engine. Small quantities of DEF are injected into the exhaust upstream of a catalyst, then converts to ammonia in the exhaust stream and reacts with NOx over the catalyst to form harmless nitrogen gas and water.” Source: www.cumminsfiltration.com.

Now, the big question is why are we living with the prior EGR engines and now DEF equiped engines due to harsher EPA requirements? All these tighter and tougher emission controls were due to an 1998 EPA lawsuit settlement where ALL U.S. diesel engine manufacturers were caught violating EPA regulations in 1998. All the engine manufactuers had tuned their ECM's to turn off the emission controls while on the highway but, would activate during city driving.
"On October 22, 1998, the Department of Justice and the Environmental Protection Agency announced an $83.4 million total penalty against diesel manufacturers, the largest civil penalty ever for violation of environmental law. Under this settlement, seven major manufacturers of diesel engines will spend more than one billion dollars to resolve claims that they installed computer devices in heavy duty diesel engines which resulted in illegal amounts of air pollution emissions. This settlement will prevent 75 million tons of harmful nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions nationwide by the year 2025. The companies involved are Caterpillar, Inc., Cummins Engine Company, Detroit Diesel Corporation, Mack Trucks, Inc., Navistar International Transportation Corporation, Renault Vehicules Industriels, s.a., and Volvo Truck Corporation.
The seven companies sold 1.3 million heavy duty diesel engines containing illegal "defeat devices," which allow an engine to pass the EPA emissions test, but then turn off emission controls during highway driving. As a result, these engines emit up to three times the current level for NOx a harmful air pollutant."

And this boys and girls is why we now have DEF and who knows what technology will be used after DEF to achieve zero NOX emissions. I am sure glad I am retired from the diesel manufacturing business, but it was fun working at DDC and Cummins and Cat over the last 30 years.

[spike45]

DEF in the US is 32.5% urea in ultra pure water. If it freezes, the urea does not separate. Thawing will yield the same premix before freezing. Typical urea consumption that Cummins service groups found was 2% - 3% of fuel consumption.

While International engines have a long history, the new MaxxForce models are new technology thus it would be better to wait until some of the early life issues are resolved before jumping in. MaxxForce's approach to cleaner emissions is to force more air into the cylinder as the former Caterpillar ACERT engines did with compound turbochargers. Caterpillar abandoned the on-highway market as those engines had a long history of problems and expensive repiars. Certain MaxxForce big block engines are actually Caterpillar long blocks with International air and exhaust systems with their HEUI injector system. Give them time to prove themselves or find that they do not make the grade.

[Perry White]

What's ultra pure water? RO maybe. Can't you dilute it 2 to one and use 16.5% mixture?

[Perry White]

Here ya go

[spike45]

Originally Posted by Perry White

What's ultra pure water? RO maybe. Can't you dilute it 2 to one and use 16.5% mixture?

RO would be considered the same as water from a ditch! At the moment, I do not have the specs on purity but it is beyond that of simple distilled. No, you cannot cut your DEF concentration. The systems are designed to detect such meddling. Selective Catalyst Reduction technology is based on 32.5% urea content. EPA engine certifications were run on 32.5%.