Dusted 425 ISL @ 60,000 miles

[WITUSA]

Just completed a 7 MONTH TRIP to Alaska. Had 4 check engine lights before getting engine checked by Cummins dealer in Anchorge.
Diagnosis was a restricted colescent filter, which I purchased for the trip down to Wash state. Had to install filter in BC, CA. as check engine lights turned into stop engine light. Approx 400 miles on new filter, check engine light came on again. Called Cummins dealer in Salt Lake city for appointment and was informed of a recall on this engine for defective valve guide seals. They spent a day checking the engine and confirmed that seals were leaking. One day job turned into two. At that time I was informed that my engine was dusted, meaning that silicon dust had been allowed to come in thru the air intake. They claimed that replacing the valve guide seals had corrected most of the problem and that I was good to go which was BS.
I requested an oil change w/filters before leaving and was told that the air filter was already changed. I asked for the old filter as that would have given indication of what may have gone wrong and was told that the
filter had been thrown away and was removed from their location. I stayed there 3 Days hoping that they might produce it. I requested that a gallon of oil be retained so that it could be tested. Got 128 miles down the road and check engine light was on again. Got to Las Vegas and took another sample of the new oil. Picked up a quart of metal conditioner at the SEMA show and added to the oil. The owner of the company claimed that the conditioner would stop further damage, but would not improve the damage already created by the silicon. Left Las Vegas and next stop was Verde Valley. Climbing out of Verde valley turned into a real challenge! Check engine light came on two times at the very beginning of the climb. I pulled over & shut down for 10 minutes to let pressure in engine equalize. The third light was a stop engine. At this point I decided to remove oil fill
cap & cover w/rag. That rag got soaked after 2 miles, put another rag into fill tube & drove to top of 3000 ft incline. This time oil was everyware. We really thought we were not going any further. This time I put another rag into fill tube using a screw driver & pushing it in as far possible. Made it to Frieghtliner in Gaffney SC without another engine light. Atlantic Cummins sent a field engineer to physically inspect the intake air system and confirmed the damage to the turbo and engine. Because the previous air filter was replaced by Camping World, Freightliner would take no responsibilty for engine damage. The intake system is designed and built by Freightliner. Took another oil sample at Gaffney, and another when I got home to NJ.
Oil samples show no additional damage since leaving Las Vegas. Original estimate by Cummins was to replace engine, but at this time I am guessing I may be able to rebuild this one. Changing oil again before going to Florida next week. Will also add another quart of metal conditioner. Have been using Amsoil since new and through all this have only used 1 quart at 15,000 miles during breakin. Lost a quart in Arizona.
Can not determine cause of dust visable in intake ducts. Water stains are visable in metal ducts which could possibly have soaked paper air filter. Engine warantee is void due to dusting and Good Sam also refused
to help as the engine is exempt from supplemental policy coverage.
08 Winnebago Vectra w/425 ISL. We love the MH.
Has anyone experienced similar engine damage?

[lonestarace]

Oil analysis is the only way I know of to determine if, an how much, silicon(dust) the engine oil has in it.
If they didn't provide you with this info they are BSn ya.

[Dav5942]

My buddy dusted his ISM on the way to Alaska a couple of years ago. Culprit appeared to be his changing of the air filter(not installed properly). $25000 rebuild, but he got his insurance to cover the entire cost!!!

[Perry White]

How many hrs,cal time and mileage on your first oil change?I can't figure the rag in the filler tube. Was it puking oil? It should had been coming out vent.

And now you are going to drive it to Florida? Can't be that bad. What's supposed to be wrong with the engine?

[WITUSA]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perry White How many hrs,cal time and mileage on your first oil change?I can't figure the rag in the filler tube. Was it puking oil? It should had been coming out vent. And now you are going to drive it to Florida? Can't be that bad. What's supposed to be wrong with the engine?

This is an 07 emissions engine which has a sealed crankcase. Venting is through the colescent filter which exits to the intake side of the turbo. This filter has been changed 3 times. Removing the oil filler cap is another way of venting the engine block. The rag was used to slow the air flow & keep the oil inside. The last oil samples are not indicating copper which means the bottom end may have survived. The next oil sample I take when I get to Florida will determine if the engine gets overhauled or replaced. Keep in mind there is a sensor which will shut the engine down if the pressure stays too high.

[lonestarace]

Please postup the data from all your used oil analysis reports, like the following data from my daily driver:

Amsoil SSO 0-30w, 18.7k miles on the oil, 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser 4.0 L V6

This is the 2nd time/yr I've run SSO 0-30w in this vehicle which now has 72k miles on it. I put about 18k miles a yr on it. Sump capacity: 6 qts. No makeup oil. It doesn't use any.

Oil was in service for 12 mths and 18,700 miles, full flow filter was a Ea015, Topdog V(no magnets) bypass system w/EaBP90 filter, air filter EaA238 was new at the beginning of this run. I changed spark plugs mid-way thru this run.

Elements in PPM
Iron 15
Chromium 1
Copper 3
Tin 3
Lead 1
Chrom 1
Nickel 0
Alum 3
Tin 3
Silver 0
Silicon 72
Sodium 44
Potassium 7
Magne 0
Titan 0
Molybdenum 1
Antim 0
Mang 0
Lith 0
Boron 6
Magnes 14
Calcium 3768
Barium 0
Phosph 527
Zinc 581

SUS Viscosity @210F 63.6
cSt Viscosity @100C 11.23
TBN 1.9
Fuel <0.5%
Insolubles% 0.3
Water <0.0%

Blackstone Lab Comments: "Thanks for the note about the new by-pass filter. Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of engine after about 5,400 miles on the oil. This oil has been in use longer than that, but wear metals still compare well with averages. Potassium, silicon, and sodium can show coolant, but that's unlikely. Potassium and silicon could be harmless sealant used to install the filter. Sodium is probably residual additive from a previous oil. The TBN was 1.9 showing some active additive left; less than 1.0 is too low. Keep this oil in use and check back in 2,000 miles."

[dieselbeaver]

Here is what I know,

Dusted used in this situation means the intake system failed to catch the incoming dirt/grit and the cylinder kits (pistons/liners) are worn out like an engine with 1 million miles on it. It is completely rebuildable. The biggest extra cost would be a turbo and possible charge air cooler due to dirt intrusion and damage to the turbo impeller. The rest of the engine (crank case) will have some additional wear possible from the wear particles that make it down there, but you oil filtration system should have kept up if it was serviced regularly.

So being as an inframe is done with out removing the entire engine from the chassis and utilizing your existing block/crank and ect, it will be cheaper than a reman. As for the source of the dirt, also check for any holes anywhere in the intake track prior to the turbo. If there is fresh air ducting prior to the air cleaner housing - make sure it is secured as if it collapses the engine will suck air from anywhere else it can to meet its needs. I have also seen ducting rub thru after the air cleaner due to parts shifting and large holes form in a short amount of time that will let alot of gunk into an engine.

If you have documentation of the defective installation then lawyer up and run it up the food chain. My experience is that paying a few hundred dollars for a few phone calls and a letter or to, can pay for itself.

Good luck,

Allen

[oldbeek]

Silicon is dust getting in. 72 ppm on 5400 mile oil sounds hi. I like to see silicon at <50ppm at 10,000 miles. Silicon sealer should never be used on a filter change.

[Fred and Bonnie]

Why is this more of a problem on DP's, opposed to gas units?

fred

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred and Bonnie Why is this more of a problem on DP's, opposed to gas units? fred

Not just DP's, it's diesel engines in general as they use far more air than a gas engine does. Bigger engine, turbo to pack it in all add up. The filter on our ISC is rated for 1200 cfm and I still run it are 15 inches of vacuum even when new.

[Bill2]

Guys, I am asking this on this thread because some of you may know the answer.
I have a 400ISL Cummins and got a oil anaylsis a couple of years ago that showed copper of 116. High. All the company said was to re-check it later which I did and it was still high. What could this mean for me?

[RJay]

Bill, this may help.

[WITUSA]

I would like to summarize what I've learned since my first post. I have recieved pictures taken by a field engineer from Cummins Atlantic which clearly show water stains trailing from the turbo blade back to the air filter outlet. I have since learned that the air filter recommended by Cummins is paper. The inlet to the filter is approximately 2 feet above & is located on the left side of the coach with no design to restrict water driven in from that direction. The vacuum guage which I have always watched carefully never moved up since I had the filter changed by Winnebago service. That filter was changed at 15 inches which I thought was high. Recommended change is around 24 inches. The air filter replaced by Salt Lake City Cummins had to be destroyed so bad that it would have been obvious as to why this engine got dusted. When I asked the service rep for the filter I was told that the filter had been thrown in the garbage & was no longer on the property. Cummins is voiding the 100,000 mile warantee due to dust. Was it the dealer or Cummins corp that told the dealer to make this problem go away by not

supplying the filter? Why a wire reinforced air filter is not used is beyond me. K&N makes such a filter. Currently I am running this engine at a high RPM (above 1400) by manually shifting the trans. Below 1400 RPM under load, blowby is pumped into the crankcase. After 2 oil changes, oil samples are showing no additional wear in 5,000 miles. I keep a rag stuffed in the oil filler tube to allow excess blowby to escape. There has been no oil consumption since this engine was new. I am a firm believer of Amsoil synthetics & believe that this is what has kept this engine in limited service. Cummins service will not commit as to what has to be replaced to correct this damage. I am not a happy camper!!

[Thorp]

WITUSA,
Thanks for the update. I empathize with you re: this difficult situation. Have you considered finding a good attorney? If you have documentation/service invoices, seems like you would have an excellent case.