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Old 12-17-2014, 09:41 AM   #1
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Dusted ISL 425

My air filter failed on my 2008 Vectra ISL 425 cummins with 35000 miles and the engine got "dusted". This was diagnosed after numerous shut down engine lights and after taking in to a cummins repair shop. The crankcase pressure rises above 12psi and the warning light comes on. This happens especially when using the exhaust brake going down the mountains. It has also happened when pedal to the medal trying to go up a steep grade even with high rpms. (Not lugging the engine). I've heard others with this problem have stuffed the oil filler tube with a rag to relieve the excessive pressure and have driven that way for months if not years. The engine shows no sign of weakness. I'm thinking of getting some pourus mesh type material to push into the filler tube that would block any oil from blowing out but would allow the excessive pressure to escape. I know this is not the most envirnmentally thing to do but?? Have any of you had the same problem and what was your fix? Thank you
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Old 12-17-2014, 09:51 AM   #2
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Poke some steal wool down the pipe...that will relieve the pressure and keep the oil in.

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Old 12-17-2014, 09:58 AM   #3
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I'm certainly not an expert but the thing I would be concerned about is future effects. How much do you know about the specific damage? Has Cummins given you a clear idea of the current extent of the damage? The by products of combustion will be going into your oil at a high rate. Will that cause accelerated wear or damage to the bottom end of that engine? Did your oil analysis show high silicon?

Final question. Could the cause of the air filter failure be determined?

I'm really sorry this has happened to you. It's certainly one of the issues that worry me.


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Old 12-17-2014, 10:00 AM   #4
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Very sorry to hear about the impact to your ISL, and understand your focus is on getting this resolved and moving on. I have no real input to help you on this, other then a perception that a 'dusted' engine - is usually going to need some serious mechanical repairs and replacement of parts and components.

More please on the failed air filter. Perhaps it can save others from future problems.

-How long was it in use, last time the AF was changed out?
-What kind of AF was it? (Fleetguard, Napa, Baldwin, etc.)
-If replaced recently, do you know if it was within it's Shelf Life? (Many are surprised that filters break down and can cause such failures, as adhesives and materials do not last forever!)

Again, sorry for what you are going thru - hope it works out to not be too painful. Hoping info sharing may assist others. I learned about Shelf Life of filters (oil, fuel, air, etc.) when I bought some from Filter Barn, and all of the filters they sent me were past their OEM Shelf Life - many still could be buying filters that are not safe to be used.

Best to you, and all,
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:22 AM   #5
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The air filter evidently failed because water got into the duct system. Speculation is that in getting the coach washed at Blue Beacon with the powerfull spray nozzels they use, water was sprayed into the intake area and went down and damped the filter. This caused the filter to weaken and eventually break down and cause air bypass. The air intake was taken apart and inspected, cleaned up, new filter, oil change and filter. The turbo didn't look bad. The engine does not burn oil. The shop told me they really couldn't diagnose any further without pulling the pan and looking at the bottom-more money. They quoted me $15-16,000 to rebuild but said I could just run it and see what happens. That's what I'm doing. Sending in an oil sample soon and see what I've got there. I'm going to pull the filter shortly and see what I've got after 10,000 miles. Don't know what brand I have.
I'm carefull now not to get water into the intake and not to rely on the air intake pressure guage. That just tells you when the system is getting plugged not if you are bypassing air. Keep you posted.
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:48 AM   #6
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The air filter evidently failed because water got into the duct system. Speculation is that in getting the coach washed at Blue Beacon with the powerfull spray nozzels they use, water was sprayed into the intake area and went down and damped the filter. This caused the filter to weaken and eventually break down and cause air bypass. The air intake was taken apart and inspected, cleaned up, new filter, oil change and filter. The turbo didn't look bad. The engine does not burn oil. The shop told me they really couldn't diagnose any further without pulling the pan and looking at the bottom-more money. They quoted me $15-16,000 to rebuild but said I could just run it and see what happens. That's what I'm doing. Sending in an oil sample soon and see what I've got there. I'm going to pull the filter shortly and see what I've got after 10,000 miles. Don't know what brand I have.
I'm carefull now not to get water into the intake and not to rely on the air intake pressure guage. That just tells you when the system is getting plugged not if you are bypassing air. Keep you posted.

I really feel for your situation. I know that I would be sick about it.

I assume you have the Farr designed disposable housing Eco type filter. They are especially dangerous because you are opening the clean side of the intake plumbing when you remove the filter. It's also designed to flow air in either direction which is not particularly efficient but the chassis builders love them. Rather than pull the filter if you are inspecting, I would just look at the dirty side & see if there is any sign of damage. Is there any way to route your dirty side plumbing to give any stray water a path other than into the filter?


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Old 12-17-2014, 11:43 AM   #7
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I really feel for your situation. I know that I would be sick about it.

I assume you have the Farr designed disposable housing Eco type filter. They are especially dangerous because you are opening the clean side of the intake plumbing when you remove the filter. It's also designed to flow air in either direction which is not particularly efficient but the chassis builders love them. Rather than pull the filter if you are inspecting, I would just look at the dirty side & see if there is any sign of damage. Is there any way to route your dirty side plumbing to give any stray water a path other than into the filter?


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X's2 on checking the dirt side!

The oil sample, especially if you had and earlier one as a baseline, can help a lot on knowing how your engine is.

You might check your owner's forum, to see if others have found ways of changing out your air filtering system.

One more bit of free $.02 - buying your own Air Filter, of a good quality and within shelf life, and taking it with you for future service. Is the best way to know you have a good filter. (Hopefully Cummins shop used a Fleetguard filter, and that would be good...)

Fingers crossed for you,
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Old 12-17-2014, 12:11 PM   #8
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X's2 on checking the dirt side!



The oil sample, especially if you had and earlier one as a baseline, can help a lot on knowing how your engine is.



You might check your owner's forum, to see if others have found ways of changing out your air filtering system.



One more bit of free $.02 - buying your own Air Filter, of a good quality and within shelf life, and taking it with you for future service. Is the best way to know you have a good filter. (Hopefully Cummins shop used a Fleetguard filter, and that would be good...)



Fingers crossed for you,

Smitty

I agree Smitty. I sent a sample for analysis at every oil change. I not interested in extending my change interval but in monitoring any change in the wear pattern of my engine.

I agree very much about using OEM filters and always use Fleetguard myself, but the air filter is a chassis builder installed item and the disposable filter most of us have is single sourced. Farr designed it and who ever owns those Farr plants now is the only manufacturer. All the filter sources out there are private labeled.

Next summer, I'm going to reconfigure my intake plumbing for a permanent housing replaceable element. Much better and more foolproof.


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Old 12-17-2014, 12:29 PM   #9
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Wow, I feel for you too. What coach do you have? I would be looking at doing whatever can be done to prevent water from getting to the filter intake. My previous DP and the one we have now is configured so that water that might find its way into the intake would drain before it gets to the filter.... assuming it was not so much water it could overcome the drain.
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Old 12-17-2014, 12:51 PM   #10
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Ouch, the kind of news that will ruin ones day.

I find this thread interesting because during our Alaska trip last summer, I had to change my air filter (Ecolite) on the way home. It was pretty bad.

Anyway, there were two others in our group with Newmar Ventanas that also required a filter change. I helped one to replace his and during the process, I noticed the air intake duct off the rear of the coach runs directly downward and into the filter. There is no provision for dirt to drop out or more importantly, water before reaching the element.

On my DS, the duct goes downward to bottom out with a duckbill on the bottom to allow dirt, water to fall out. The inlet to the filter is taken off the duct about 6-8" off the bottom so the chances of water entering the element are very slim.



I guess it's always about cutting costs.
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Old 12-17-2014, 01:48 PM   #11
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I had just about the same thing. I would question about the engine being dusted. Have you been on very much off payment roads. I was told that on an earlier coach that had a cummins engine. It had came from the factory with several liners out of round. I would assume that you are out of warranty. After doing several recalls which are called campaigns taking off the head and putting a new head on still didn't fix it. Only after doing a compression check did they find the cylinders were out of round. My engine was about the same vintage as yours mine was also a 425 with a closed system. When the bypass built up to much pressure it would give a engine light and derate the engine. Final result was a complete overhaul with new liners Pistons rings they used the new head they put in a new cam . I would have someone check the compression and if it is only one or two cylinders that is causing the blowby i wouldn't think that it was dusting. That's what thy told me at first I knew I haven't been anywhere other than hard surface roads only some parking lots. Hope this helps. If I can help you can give me your email address. Or contact info.
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Old 12-17-2014, 05:28 PM   #12
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I feel your pain... quite literally... I dusted the B series cummins in our old '94 HR. I don't know how long the boot on our air cleaner was torn, but I don't think it took very long (less than a thousand miles?) to do tremendous damage. Cylinders 1 and 3 were worn so badly that it is going to take a .040 overbore to clean them up. The other 4 cylinders appeared untouched, although the pistons had a great deal of sand stuck in the relief around the tops of each of them.

In our case, by the time I figured out what was going on... it was too late. The damage was so bad that continuing to run the engine with .012" - .015" deep scores in the cylinders would have just accelerated it's demise. The funny thing was... aside from a slight lope at an idle, and burning a gallon of oil every 1000 miles, you couldn't tell that there was anything wrong. It seemed to run fine with lots of power, it basically NEVER smoked (not that you could tell anyways, and the slobber tube didn't seem to show a lot of blow-by.

If I were you... I think I'd do an oil analysis now... change the oil, then drive it for a short while and have another oil analysis done. This should tell you if after you fix the air cleaner there is still excessive wear happening in the engine... Just my $.02.

I believe that the engine in our rv had been "slightly" dusted prior to us purchasing it... it had the telltale signs of dust in the intake tubes and slight chewing of the compressor wheel in the turbo... but there was no oil usage, and no lope at an idle. Had it not gotten "severely" dusted, it would probably still be running today...

Wishing you the best...

-cheers
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Old 12-17-2014, 06:38 PM   #13
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I have talked with Cummins people about Farr factory air filters and they said to check the date code on new air filters because they are having problem with the glue coming apart cause the filter to be sucked into turbo. They are recommending yearly air filter changes and when buying AF that are no more then 6 months old.
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Old 12-17-2014, 08:11 PM   #14
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Aside from what Piker said (read his thread http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/urge...ng-202637.html Lots of reading there) the only other thing is to have Cummins do a manometer test. That will tell you how much blow by you have to determine the actual wear you have as far as the piston rings and cylinders where the dusted part would show the most.
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