Lots of titanium installation & mounting questions
Hey 79cvx20, does the "elbow" you talked about have a check valve in it... with a spring inside you can remove and clean? Where is it located?
SUBJECT TODAY
On my engine I have two remote filters 2-filters mounted in the rear of my coach which are very convenient to reach; and I can trace my fuel lines from the Primary Filter to the fuel manifold. (Also see attached pictures of a the fuel manifold that sits on top of the stock lift pump.)
* Prices on the Titanium "Signature Series" are coming down and you can get a KIT priced at under $700 vs. going with the FASS Adjustable "FA" 95-GPH pump priced at $495 (without the fittings, mounting bracket, hose, and wire harness).
And I'm guessing you can't use all the parts in the FASS Titanium Kit, because it's marketed for a Dodge Ram Truck (2500/3500), but I'm guessing some parts will be usable and that closes the cost gap between the Titanium pump and the "FA" pump. So I'm leaning towards Titanium, because I buy into the "air separation" value and to a lesser extent the "fuel polishing" created by FASS re-circulation port back to the tank.
So then the question becomes: WHAT TO DO WITH MY CURRENT 2 FILTERS and HOW TO INSTALL THE RETURN FASS FUEL RETURN LINES?
More questions about FASS Titanium installation options:
Part #: TSD08095G
1) Why can't I just replace my current 10u-Secondary Filter and put the Titanium pump and 2 filters (10u & 3u) in it's place? ...and keep my primary filter?
2) The Titanium pump has it's own fuel return line and so does the CAPS pump. So is there anything wrong with running the 1/2" FASS fuel return line out of the Titanium pump... to a "Y-connector" ...that ties into the CAPS (1/2" or 5/8"?) return line coming out of the fuel manifold... and then running one larger 5/8" new fuel return line from the "Y-connector" back to the tank?
3a) I plan on running new fuel lines anyway, so installing a FASS Titanium Kit might make the most sense, especially since it has better fuel filtering capabilities (air, dirt, moisture) vs the "FA" pump. BUT... I am concerned about this: Do I need to drop the fuel tank to do this?
3b) Where on the tank is the suction line and what size is it?
3c) And where on the fuel tank is the return line and what size it it?
Note: In the attached picture you will see the "brown" fuel line leading out of the fuel manifold. This is the CAPS return fuel line and apparently this line is made of nylon not copper. TBD
==> I called FASS and they are very helpful on all matters, but they only market their pumps for diesel engines in trucks and semis, not RVs so much.
* Both techs said you can mount any FASS pump in the engine compartment and your pump will not have a suction problems even though your fuel tank is 30+ feet away. They said both the Titanium and the FA pump motor is strong enough that you will not loose suction.
Side note: One owner said he installed a one-way fuel valve at the tank and on the suction fuel line so that he would not have to be concerned with fuel draining back into the tank. What do you think about that?
So I got conflicting answers when it came to these subjects:
4) BUT... When I asked if I can mount the FASS Titanium pump in the same place as my Secondary Filter and keep the primary filter AS-IS: One tech said I can keep my 20u-Primary Filter and another tech said not to do that! Who is more correct?
So I'm still deciding on how to install and where to install the Titanium pump... and if I should remove both my current fuel filters or leave the 20u primary filter AS-IS.
5) ...And if I leave the Primary Filter AS-IS would there be any harm screwing in the 10u filter in place where my 20u filter is now? Would there be more fuel restriction on the suction side of the FASS pump and would it matter if I left one of these filters in-line to the FASS pump? I will call this a "Pre-filter" to the FASS Filters. (So there would be 3 fuel filters in total.)
Note: Fleetguard type filters have the same thread and use the same filter-head so reducing the "PRE-Filter" from 20u to 10u is no problem.
Alternatively, if I remove both of my current filters (20u & 10u), and just install the FASS Titanium Filters (10u and 3u), that seems straight forward enouth... but I kind of like the idea of having a "Pre-filter" (20u or 10u) to catch "stuff" before the FASS Titanium 2 filters do their magic. And note: Both FS filters are water-separator-filters, but only the FS1022 has the water sensor built in.
==> So going with the 10u (FS1022) that has the water sensor built-in is a good idea since I can use my existing wiring for this sensor.
Is these question over kill or important to everyone? I know I'm over-thinking it, but I want to do this upgrade right and I do not yet have a clear picture on how to do that.
...Keep in mind it would be easier to leave my primary filter "as-is" and just put the FASS filter in the same place... with the same fuel lines routed back to the fuel manifold AS-IS; vs. taking my current 2 filters out.
Plus I hope to re-use the secondary mounting bracket somehow to mount the FASS Filter (TBD), or modify it with the FASS brackets that come in the kit.
6) Will adding a filter before the FASS Titanium pump cause a restriction and lower the PSI out of the Titanium pump Pre-set at 16-18PSI?
* Also attached is a 2003 stock Cummins Lift Pump Data Sheet, but you really need to check the part number for your engine since Cummins used several lift pumps and gaskets pre-2003 due to leakage problems in this area.
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You are over thinking this. If you can just mount the pump as close to the tank as possible. You can run the suction to the fitting on the top on your tank. From there you can run a new fuel line straight to your secondary filter then from the secondary filter straight to the CAPPS pump. If your fuel tank is accessible just get in there and take a look.
Yes... 2 minutes after starting the engine the stock lift pump turns off and the gear driven injector pump takes over... sucking fuel all the way from the tank 30+ feet away.
Therefore, there is a vacuum on the fuel supply line that goes from the tank to the primary filter and secondary filter; which means if you add a fuel pressure gauge to any part of the fuel line that feeds the injection pump (after 2 minutes) the gauge would read 0-PSI since there will be vacuum pressure on this line.
This explains why I saw air getting sucked in (through the FA1242 filter bowl) when I opened the stopcock to drain the fuel -- just after the engine quit.
Moving on...
Okay... you are right. I over think things, but up until now I have not been able to understand the pluses and minus of this FASS upgrade.
Plus you have the experts at Brazel's saying they prefer to install the FASS Adjustable "FA" pump installation over the Titanium. So who's more correct? And maybe at one time it was 2x the cost to upgrade to the Titanium, but now, with those Dodge Ram 2500/3500 Kit available for under $700 (including shipping) it would seem like the price points are very much the same. So if price is not the hold back what is?
I think this subject is a process of deduction. And I appreciate your help!
SO... Let's say I mount the FASS Titanium 2 filters by the tank.
* Will I hear the FASS pump running all the time?
I'm guessing not if you go with the new Titanium "Signature Series"? But I definitely don't want to hear a fuel pump hum while I am driving.
This presents few new filter options:
* Would you change the FASS 3u filter to a 10u? This is the first filter from the tank...
...And then change the FASS 10u to a 5u?
** ...And change my existing secondary filter to a CAT 3u style filter?
This would result in a fuel filter flow that looks like this:
I think the way they do it will be just fine. I just chose to do it differently. You can use your existing filters without a problem. I have made one trip since installing the FASS pump. It was from Southeast TX to Niagra falls. Maybe 5K miles total? No issues other than a leaking metal bleed line of the injector pump which was totally my fault.
I only changed my supply fuel lines. It comes from my tank to the pump which is a very short run. Then there is a very long run to the secondary filter. From the secondary filter it goes right into the back of the injection pump. It was fairly difficult to run a new fuel line all the way through the bottom of the RV but then again I work alone. The wife ain't much help. I bought some cheap fiberglass fish rods from harbor freight which helped. I spent a ton of time wrapping the new fuel line with heater hose around bends and corners.
As far as hearing the pump I could care less. I can faintly hear the pump over the road noise. It just lets me know it's still running because if it were not the injection pump will still draw fuel through the pump even if it's not running.
How can you tell if your fuel lines are rotting-out from the inside?
Or is it a given that 2004 fuel lines are running on "borrowed time" since ULSD did not get introduced into the market until 2006?
Is millage the critical factor or age? My RV is a 2004 vintage and I have 91,000 mile on the engine; with about 75,000 of those miles driven after 2006.
UPDATE ON FUEL PUMP CHOICES: I talked to Alan at Brazel's RV Performance in Centralia, WA and this is what we concluded:
* Brazel's will only install the FASS Adjustable "FA" 95-GPH pump. This pump does not have a return line to deal with. And they will install the FASS "FA" pump between your 2-filters. That means your fuel flow will look like this:
Brazel's says they have done 100's of these installs and does not promote the FASS Titanium Pump since it's more work, higher cost, overkill, and you have to plumb a separate FASS return line to the fuel tank, which is another 4 hours of work.
==> I'm no expert, but I can reason through the trade-offs of going with a "FA" pump vs. the advantages of "Air Separation" pump you only get with the Titanium Series pump. And so, after much research, I have to agree with Allan, but for slightly other reasons:
* FASS Pumps are marketed for 750,000 mile to 1M mile semi truck applications and/or high performance (600HP+) Diesel truck applications. And no where, other than this forum and other RV forums, did I find FASS pumps marketed for RVs.
So this is what I asked myself:
1) How many miles do I plan on driving your RV before I sell it? Answer: Maybe 30,000 more miles.
2) Do I really need to replace my suction-side fuel line? Answer: I don't know? People say their fuel lines are rotting out due to ULSD fuels, but no one can define how you test for a rotted out fuel line unless you actually see leaking diesel fuel coming out of the line.
3) Is "Air Separation" really that important? Answer: No. Not unless you plan on driving your RV over 500,000 miles.
CONCLUSIONS
I now think you will conclude the FASS Titanium pump is overkill -- and plumping a return fuel line back to the tank is a lot more work. Plus the ROI is not there. Air separation maybe real, but in a CAPS pump you will will not see any more performance from the Titanium pump.
As for added injector system lubrication and longevity, I think your CAPS injection system will enjoy just as much "added" lubrication protection from the "FA" adjustable pump as the Titanium pump. That said, the worse thing you could do... is to do nothing and let your engine continuously get starved for fuel, which will accelerate injector pump system wear-and-tear; until one day when your pump fails. Or you can add a FASS "FA" pump to prevent fuel starvation at a cost of... TBD. (I will let you know.)
BENEFIT
Alan at Brazel's says owners who add the "FA" pump will experience some acceleration improvement; and when you are not "stepping on the pedal" ...you might also see a slight fuel improvement. (TBD)
==> I asked Alan: What can ISC owners do to increase torque/HP? Answer: He said they sell a lot of "Performance Modules" from Agricultural Engineering. However, he said they will not add the performance module without also adding the FASS "FA" pump.
I have noticed the price of these modules have dropped. So I will explore this option too.
OBSERVATIONS
I now think the primary purpose for adding a FASS fuel pump is to help deliver positive fuel pressure to the gear injection pump; and when you ensure positive fuel pressure to the gear injection pump, you will virtually eliminate the FUEL STARVATION PROBLEMS commonly experienced with the stock Cummins (Carter) Lift Pump design. And frankly, that is what I care about the most, because no fuel starvation means less CAPS injector system wear-and-tear; and less probably of failure.
So reducing injector pump wear-and-tear sounds like the most important thing Cummins ISC/ISL owners can do to their engine.
...And with the money I just saved by NOT going with the Titanium installation, I just might add the "Performance Module" from Agriculture Engineering. (TBD)
...With one caveat: I do NOT need to replace the suction line from the tank to the engine filters.
-- So back to the primary question: How can you tell if your fuel lines are rot-out from the inside?
How can you tell if your fuel lines are rotting-out from the inside?
.
-- So back to the primary question: How can you tell if your fuel lines are rot-out from the inside?
Observe for signs of fuel starvation under load.
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2000 Winnebago Ultimate Freedom USQ40JD, ISC 8.3 Cummins 350, Spartan MM Chassis. USA IN 1SG 11B5MX,Infantry retired;Good Sam Life member,FMCA." My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. John F. Kennedy
[B]S:
-- So back to the primary question: How can you tell if your fuel lines are rot-out from the inside?
If your pulling in air on the suction side, or leaking fuel on the pressure side. If your continually changing fuel filters could be signs. I just changed filters after three years with my Fass pump. I only noticed a 2 psi drop on a hard pull.
TO "FA" OR "FS"? (FASS Adjustible vs FASS Signature Taitanium Legacy Fuel Pump
I think I maybe changing my mind again. I think I was almost right the first time I thought I would put a Titanium pump in the same spot as my Secondary Fuel Filter, but after taking with FASS they said if I want to keep my existing fuel flow plumping AS-IS I should put the FASS Titanium 2-filters in the same spot as the Primary Filter. This is so the fuel line from the tank will go directly to the FASS Titanium Fuel Pump.
So I decided to diagram the FASS Titanium install. And now I can't see why I can't just yank-out my Primary Filter and put the FASS Titanium Filter in it's place?
...And if I get a 5/8" Tapered Fitting to a 1/2" NPT thread (to connect my existing fuel lines to the FASS 1/2" port; this will let me easily tie into my existing 2-filter setup. And when finished I will end up with 3 filter locations.
...I suppose I don't need 3 filters, but leaving the Secondary Filter AS-IS will make the installation go faster and in theory you will not need to deal with the fuel flow manifold at all. And that means you don't need to access the engine from inside the bedroom.
* Going with a Titanium pump installation also means I need to spend $150 on a 40-foot FASS fuel return, but it should not be too much trouble to splice--in a fuel filler neck the comes in the Kit. (See picture of driver side filler neck.) ...In much the same way as FASS installations found on YouTube.com that show how FASS pumps are installed to a truck (Duramax or Ram).
==> Now get this: FASS uses the same thread pitch (1-14 UNS-2b) on their filters as Fleetguard (and others) use.
This means I can change the fuel filter order used the same two Fleetguard filters (20u and 10u) I now use, and then put a 5u Fleetguard FF5320 filter, or I can use the FASS Filter FF3003 (3u), that comes in the Kit, and place it in the 3rd filter position before the injector pump... all without re-routing the fuel lines. (Or use whatever filter arrangement I want since the FASS pump will push fuel without any problems.) See Diagram.
...And after talking to the FASS technical support team, they seem emphatic about a couple points:
1) Nothing should exist between the tank and the FASS pump. Not even a check-valve at the tank, because they want the fuel to return to the tank when the engine is turned off or in the very least so no suction remains on the supply side fuel line. They say the fuel will remain in the filters and the pump will not loose it's prime.
2) If you have 5/8" fuel lines feeding the FASS pump then you need to run a 5/8" fuel line back to the the tank. (Likewise, 1/2" in means 1/2" out).
3) You can leave a 3rd filter after the FASS Titanium pump and it will auto-adjust to 16-18PSI out of the pump (via an internal spring and diaphragm setup).
The FASS Kit Part #TSD07095G is now selling for $673 (no tax and includes shipping) and at this price it seems hard to pass up. The kit also includes a $50 wire harness, $50 mounting bracket, and the $30 fuel filler neck insert you will need. As for the rest of the parts these will probably not be used.
The only major additional cost will be to add a 40' FASS fuel return line.
QUESTIONS:
1) Since I have to turn the FASS pump on through the Ignition Switch, then why do I need to disconnect the ECM wiring to my old stock Lift Pump? Why can't I just leave it and let it run until the engine starts?
* Is that too much fuel pressure for the gear driven fuel injection pump to handle? I understand their is a minimum psi the lift pump must pump on the gear pump, but I don't know if there is a maximum PSI?
2) Alternatively, I could easily put a toggle (on/off) switch on my dash to turn on the FASS fuel pump 30 seconds after the engine starts as opposed to wiring it to the ignition key. This way the FASS will only run when I want it to; and I can just leave my stock lift pump wired AS-IS... and it will be functional AS-IS. Which wiring method is best?
3) And with the money I save, I may add a Agricultural Engineering Power Module (#12100), but I'm not sure I will right away. I first want to see how much better my engine idles and performs on the highway with the FASS Titanium Fuel Pump.
Note: The Titanium Signature "New" Series comes with 2 fuel filters (140u & 3u) made from non-cellulose materials -- you don't really need since you will not be driving 30,000 miles in the first 1-2 years; and you probably will be changing your filters every 2 years no matter how many miles you drive. Plus all the FASS Distributors are lowering the price on the larger "Legacy" filters... which are perfect for an RV application. (FS1001 & FF3003). So you can run these if you like.
You sure are going about this the hard way....lol. Why would you not just mount the pump near the tank? You don't need to mount the return into the tank filler neck. You can tee into the tank vent. The only length of hose you will need is a short suction and a short bleed off line from the pump to the tank vent.
You don’t need to run 40 feet of fuel line for the return. Just run the return line into the lift pump manifold fuel return side.
Bill
If I am not mistaken that's where the unused fuel from the injection pump is returned at. I would not want that fuel competing with the FASS fuel pump return. It may not hurt a thing but if for some reason it slowed down the return fuel from the injection pump it may hurt something. I may be wrong though. I have changed a few injection pumps before but not enough to say I'm an expert.
I have been talking with the FASS Customer Support at 636-433-5410 and so I have a few corrections and updates to share:
* I have 1/2" fuel lines not 5/8".
* FASS says the fuel return line is critical for the "FS" pump to have a long life. (Gallons In = Engine demand + fuel return). And while this is variable, and a 1/2" fuel line is sufficient.
…But I too would not want to run the 1/2" FASS return into the same 1/2" CAPS return line as 1/2” line will probably not handle both return flow rates without creating back-pressure on the FS pump. So plumbing a separate FS return line sounds better to me.
FASS offers a fuel "Return Manifold" (Part# RM-1001) you can cut-in at your fuel filler neck.
* My fuel tank filler tube is 2" o.d. in Diameter so I will use the “silver” color Return Manifold from FASS. (Return Manifold color code: Silver = 2"; Blue = 1.5"; and Red = 1.75")
* As to where I mount the FS pump? I don’t think I have room under my coach. ...Maybe behind the generator there is room. However, that will make changing the filters difficult. And I don’t want to mount the FS filters inside a cargo area for obvious reasons. …Besides, even if I mount the pump close to the tank, I will still need to run 35’ long supply line to the Lift pump manifold or directly to the injection pump.
* I think mounting the FS pump in the engine compartment, with easy access, and room for the fuel to drain to the ground is the best place. And if I mount the FS pump in the same place as my current 20-micron Primary Filter; it now looks like I can use my 1/2" fuel lines “as-is.” …And I do not have to disturb any fuel lines routed to the fuel manifold.
* Therefore, the only additional parts I need that are not include in the TSD08095G Kit are:
a) A L-bracket I need to make so I can bolt the FASS pump to the existing 4-bolt fuel bracket.
b) Order the silver color 2” Return Manifold (RM-1001) from FASS
c) Order 35-40’ of fuel line for the return fuel line.
d) OPTIONAL: Order another 35' of fuel supply line.
In the diagram I posted earlier, the fuel supply line will still deliver fuel from the tank to the lift pump manifold; but I don’t expect there will be any restriction there. Not enough to count anyway.
* I also do not plan on replacing my fuel lines. However, if one day I do need to replace the supply line to the lift pump manifold: I found a good solution that will keep you from dropping the tank. Just add a 90-degree fitting to the bottom of your tank where there is a 1/2" drain plug already there. (See bottom of tank picture.)
* ELECTRICAL With the FS pump mounted in the rear engine compartment, it should will not be too difficult to find an ignition (switched +12v) lead located in the mini-fuse box -- dedicated for the tow lights and some other functions. This fuse box located next to the radiator side of the coach. …And the battery box is on the passenger side so I can run direct from the engine battery to the fuel pump. So I may not need that much 10 gauge wiring vs. tying in closer to the ignition key switch.
SIDE QUESTION: Since I plan to splice in a fuel return line where the filler neck meets the tank, do you have any "Macgyver" ideas on how to fix the annoying fuel fill-up problem too? ...This is where the pump keeps turning off 10-20 gallons before the tank is full. Maybe just adding the FASS Return Manifold will fix this problem too? TBD.
We have an access door that is screwed shut because it's not a door you would use every day. This door can be unscrewed and give very good access to the top of the tank. Yours must not be that way. I thought ours was the same and that door was a false door. Just two screws and it swing up and open. I mounted my pump on the back side of the bulk head kinda of in the wheel well but way in the back. If you want I can take some pics and show ya....maybe it will give ya a different perspective.
Also not sure how your fuel tank is built with a solid filler neck welded to the tank. If I would have used their filler neck option that would leave the top of my filler neck flopping around. If you have not done so you might want to take a look and see what you tank looks like.
Around and around I went trying to decide on where and how would be the best way to install the TS Pump with two filters to my existing fuel delivery system.
In the end I now have 3 fuel filters: 20u => 10u => 2u . And I reused my Fleetguard filters in the FASS pump.
In the end I'm glad I have better filtration than before, and I like that the TS pump has a fuel return line for lots of reasons. Most notably: The engine will keep running if the TS pump fails for whatever reason; the TS pump is an "Air Separation" pump; the TS pump is self regulating; the FASS fuel return line routes unused fuel direct to the tank and not thru the CAPS injection system at a rate of 95GPH; and this constant fuel cycling means fuel is filtered over-and-over ...and that too sounds great to me too!
Here's a link to more information on how I installed the FASS Titanium (TS) "Signature Series" Pump in my 2004 Itasca "Horizon" 40AD (Cummins ISC-CAPS) with a Freightliner Evolution Chassis:
In addition you can download the attached .pdfs so you understand the methods I used to mount the TS pump and the location you will linstall a FASS pump in a Freightliner Chassis.
Note: The pink highlighter in the diagram was drawn by TR4, and this is the preferred method to installing the TS pump if you have room near your fuel tank and have access to the top of that tank that some Monaco RVs have with a Spartan chassis. You also might only have room by the tank if you do NOT have an Independent Front Suspension (IFS).
In my Winnebago/Itasca Horizon I do NOT have access to the top of my fuel tank and I have an IFS so there was no room to mount the FASS pump near the tank, but it fit great in the same place as my primary filter.
I also installed the TS pump 2000 miles ago and everything is running great! I'm glad I finally decided to install the TS pump and I wish I knew about this upgrade 30,000 miles ago when I bought my coach, because I did loose a CAPS injection pump and ECM and it cost me $9,000 to replace. Never mind all the hassles that go with being stranded. In my case I was only 20 miles from a Cummins repair facility in Colburg, Oregon -- and they still charged my insurance company $1,000 for towing! That's $50/mile!
So avoid all that and get a FASS TS or FA Pump installed ASAP! You will be glad you did!
And in conclusion: Yes the FA Pump is a good upgrade, but the FASS TS Pump is a better upgrade for only a couple hundred dollars more, and the TS pump has lots more advantages over the FA pump.
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