Final Charge coolant in ISM oil!!!!

[Chickadee]

For you iRV2 Mechanics:

Had our 08 motorhome with 500 ISM Cummins in for service at Spartan factory in Charlotte, Mich., and tech found an alarming amount of Final Charge Extended Life coolant INSIDE the filter........NOT GOOD!!

Techs at Spartan had never seen that before and so we're now on our way to Cummins Bidgeway in Gr. Rapids, Mich. for engine doctor appointment. They approved in writing the 70 mile trip since Spartan had changed oil anyway and pressure tested cooling syst. with no evidence of coolant leak into oil pan.

So far, guesses as to where coolant is entering oil range from EGR unit, to oil cooling unit to.....head gasket....to....I don't want to think about it!!

You folks have ANY ideas about this??? Ahhhh.....NO !!!....I did NOT pour Final Charge coolant into oil filler tube. Although, at my age it coulda happend (just kiddin.....ah....I think)

Steve

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickadee For you iRV2 Mechanics: Had our 08 motorhome with 500 ISM Cummins in for service at Spartan factory in Charlotte, Mich., and tech found an alarming amount of Final Charge Extended Life coolant INSIDE the filter........NOT GOOD!! Techs at Spartan had never seen that before and so we're now on our way to Cummins Bidgeway in Gr. Rapids, Mich. for engine doctor appointment. They approved in writing the 70 mile trip since Spartan had changed oil anyway and pressure tested cooling syst. with no evidence of coolant leak into oil pan. So far, guesses as to where coolant is entering oil range from EGR unit, to oil cooling unit to.....head gasket....to....I don't want to think about it!! You folks have ANY ideas about this??? Ahhhh.....NO !!!....I did NOT pour Final Charge coolant into oil filler tube. Although, at my age it coulda happend (just kiddin.....ah....I think) Steve

The usual scenario of an EGR cooler crack is that it leaves trace chemical elements in the oil that can only be identified by used oil analysis, particularly sodium and potassium. These two elements are found in engine coolant chemistry. Finding liquid coolant means the coolant entered the system at a rapid rate. Normally, engine oil temperatures are such that slow leaks of coolant are boiled off by normal crankcase oil temps. If you are running around 200F on the temp gauge for an extended time (long hill?) the oil temp will be in the 230 - 245F range. Premixed Final Charge will boil at about 226F and leave behind the trace elements. Liquid coolant is not often found in engines. Did you or can you get the oil filter that was removed? If Spartan still has it, cutting it open may reveal that the Stratapore synthetic media has disappeared from the full flow section assuming your used the Fleetguard filter. No mention was made of coolant found in the pan drain oil was there? Have you been adding coolant regularly prior to this but never see where it went?

[Chickadee]

Gary:

Thanks for the reply, and...sorry for the long delayed response....we've been bouncing around between Charlotte, Gr. Rapids Cummins, and now here at Newmar in Nappanee, IN.

Bridgeway Cummins up in Gr. Rapids isolated that Final Charge leak into oil as a malfunction of the "Oil Cooler (ie., InterCooler)." As explained to me...when the engine was running, under load, the pressure inside oil cooler kept defect from leaking Final Charge into oil,...HOWEVER,...when engine came to idle, and then turned off, that's when the Final Charge coolant got into the oil inside the oil cooler..somehow...just as the pressure was "bleeding off" following engine shut down.

Tech working on coach up at Cummins had left the shop before I could talk to him in detail about the oil coolant "defect" (ie., gasket, casting...don't know), and we've been runnings, but I'll try to get in touch with him. I'd like to know what the oil cooler defect was.

Steve

[J Walker]

The oil cooler is just tubing with the oil inside surrounded by coolant. There may be some joints or couplings that are leaking. The tech must have run a pressure test to find the leak. It looks like a new radiator is in your future. The much bigger question is possible engine damage. I would run some miles and then have an oil sample analyzed. I am sorry to hear about your trouble and it just shows how little it takes to have a major problem.

[Chickadee]

Hi Jim:

You're right about the tech running a pressure test as part of finding the leak of coolant into the oil of the oil cooler (inter cooler). Part to replace was $400 + although covered by warranty.

You mentioned that it looks like a new radiator is in our future. WHY?? Just curious, since no one else has mentioned that. (Keep in mind I don't know 'nuttin' about the technical stuff related to engine operation). How does the oil cooler failure relate to our rig's radiator??? I can understand your comment about analyzing the oil after running awhile, but can't understand your comment about radiator replacment.

Thanks.

Steve

[RustyJC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickadee Hi Jim: You're right about the tech running a pressure test as part of finding the leak of coolant into the oil of the oil cooler (inter cooler).

A small point since these terms have been used parenthetically several times. The oil cooler is NOT the intercooler. The oil cooler in your Cummins uses engine coolant to control engine oil temperature. The intercooler, on the other hand, cools the turbocharger compressor discharge air (boost or charge air) before it reaches the engine intake manifold.

The terms "intercooler" and "aftercooler" are used interchangeably in the engine industry, but they have specific and different meanings. Intercoolers are used to cool a gas BETWEEN stages of compression while aftercoolers are used to cool a gas AFTER its final stage of compression. Some engine manufacturers consider that the charge air undergoes one more stage of compression after leaving the turbocharger during the engine's compression stroke and, therefore, use the term "intercooler". Other engine manufacturers consider the turbocharger discharge as the final stage of compression (thus, usage of the term "aftercooler") before the charge air is delivered to the engine. In this application, either term is acceptable based on historic usage.

And, yes, because of having it pounded into me at engineering school, I'm still a purist regarding the terms "engine" and "motor" as well. You have a diesel "engine" (NOT a motor) in your rig. I realize, however, that because of decades of misuse (General MOTORS, MOTORcycles, MOTOR oil, etc.), I'm on the losing end of that debate.

Rusty

[J Walker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickadee Hi Jim: You mentioned that it looks like a new radiator is in our future. WHY?? Just curious, since no one else has mentioned that. Thanks. Steve

My concept of the oil cooler is that it is integral to the radiator. Often the oil line runs into the the radiator and a length of the oil line is inside the radiator so that the oil cools down to the coolant temp. That would open up a way for the coolant to get into the oil if there was a crack in the oil line. In order to repair this I am speculating that you will end up replacing the radiator. You don't usually have an oil cooler that is air cooled as OEM.
One more thing about the oil analysis is that it tells you far more than the possible presence of coolant in the oil which is important. Unusual engine wear is also noted by the presence of metal in the oil. It could tell you something about possible damage to your engine.

[RustyJC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Walker My concept of the oil cooler is that it is integral to the radiator.

Nope - that's generally a transmission oil cooler. The engine oil cooler on your ISB is directly behind the plate/flange where your oil filter mounts. See HERE.

Rusty

[J Walker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC Nope - that's generally a transmission oil cooler. The engine oil cooler on your ISB is directly behind the plate/flange where your oil filter mounts. See HERE. Rusty

Thanks. I felt I was getting a little beyond my knowledge and experience. So, how does the oil cooler pick up coolant?

[RustyJC]

That's what the gasket shown on the illustration is for. The oil cooler mounts to the engine block, and the coil is fed by the engine's coolant jacket. The gasket and plate farthest away from the oil filter mount seal the oil cooler to the engine block.

Rusty

[Chickadee]

Rusty & Jim:

THANKS for your great info re: oil cooler. Rusty: was the link you provided specific for ISB's, or is it the same for our ISM Cummins. Our "oil cooler" IS mounted to the block as you described, and although I have yet to be able to talk to the Cummins tech who worked on our rig, that coolant leak DID occur in the "oil cooler", but I don't know whether it was a gasket malfunction or something else. Will let ya know IF I ever find out.

Thanks again. You guys are great!!.....especially for mechanical dummies like me.

Steve

[RustyJC]

Yes, the diagram I provided was ISB specific. The ISM cooler appears to be an external shell-and-tube type cooler with the oil and coolant feeds and returns taken from flanged connections to the cylinder block. The actual cooler is the cylindrical object at the top of the photo - see below:



I'm only speculating, but what normally happens in this type of cooler is one of the tubes (through which oil is circulated) will develop a leak due to a crack, failed weld, bad seal, etc. and allow oil into the coolant (which circulates around the tubes in the shell) or, when the engine is down, coolant into the oil.

Rusty

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Walker The oil cooler is just tubing with the oil inside surrounded by coolant. There may be some joints or couplings that are leaking. The tech must have run a pressure test to find the leak. It looks like a new radiator is in your future. The much bigger question is possible engine damage. I would run some miles and then have an oil sample analyzed. I am sorry to hear about your trouble and it just shows how little it takes to have a major problem.

An ISM engine oil cooler is NOT in the radiator. It is integral with the lube oil filter head assembly on the engine. While oil cooler leaks are not an epidemic at Cummins, it is not unheard of occurrence either.

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chickadee Gary: Thanks for the reply, and...sorry for the long delayed response....we've been bouncing around between Charlotte, Gr. Rapids Cummins, and now here at Newmar in Nappanee, IN. Bridgeway Cummins up in Gr. Rapids isolated that Final Charge leak into oil as a malfunction of the "Oil Cooler (ie., InterCooler)." As explained to me...when the engine was running, under load, the pressure inside oil cooler kept defect from leaking Final Charge into oil,...HOWEVER,...when engine came to idle, and then turned off, that's when the Final Charge coolant got into the oil inside the oil cooler..somehow...just as the pressure was "bleeding off" following engine shut down. Tech working on coach up at Cummins had left the shop before I could talk to him in detail about the oil coolant "defect" (ie., gasket, casting...don't know), and we've been runnings, but I'll try to get in touch with him. I'd like to know what the oil cooler defect was. Steve

When I was with Caterpillar, pressure testing oil coolers often would not indicate leakage issues. However, replacement of the cooler did stop the coolant-in-oil problems. Cummins does no better in the testing but replacement stops the issues.