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10-22-2017, 12:19 PM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 22
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ISL 370 turbo cut-off / surge
Rig: 2002 Monaco Executive
Engine: Cummins ISL 370
Mileage: 52k
Currently more than an hour away from civilization at a Colorado lake. While driving to this destination the turbo began erratically surging/cutting-out up to 10psi of boost when accelerating above 45mph. Once stable cruising speed was reached (~65mph), there was no issue unless under large load for a hill climb. I want to rule out air filter/fuel filter due to it achieving full boost at lower speeds with no cut-out. At the most, there will be a slight surge at lower speeds. My experience is that restricted filters affect turbo boost throughout the entire power curve. Once the turbo issue started, I topped off the fuel tank which was at 1/2 capacity prior to filling. Air intake meter is good, both fuel filters replaced at the beginning of summer (I have 2 extras with me), engine idles perfect, maintains consistent RPM throughout the power curve in neutral, all temp ranges are normal, no dash fault indicators, AquaHot/generator run perfect on the fuel as well as the engine when tested in neutral, unknown if there is unusual smoke from the exhaust whereas I was driving at night (nothing unusual observed during the day, but then again the turbo is not putting out any significant boost in neutral).
The engine is maintained as if the service requirements are the practices of a cult. I've put 6k miles on it in the past year without any powertrain issues whatsoever and it's actually been driven about 200 miles every other weekend this entire summer. The effect of the steep turbo cut-out at first felt like a caliper locking up or the transmission having an issue. (It's very noticeable when you loose 10psi boost under full load and then it immediately kicks back in.)
I want to make sure I'm not doing any damage by leaving here tomorrow morning on a 2 hour drive which will increase 1000ft in elevation. I can rebuild a gas engine as if it were a lifetime hobby, but diesels are somewhat foreign to me. I understand the science, but have never dissected one. My lower bays are virtually a mechanic's shop, so there is no lack of necessary tools for whatever needs to be checked.
A video of the issue has been uploaded, just click the link (hopefully). Note that the lower left gauge is boost pressure (don't pay attention to cruise control light flashing, it was a defective LED bulb that has been replaced.) Any thoughts are appreciated because I want to address this issue before leaving and possibly prevent causing damage.
https://youtu.be/cF-fGuCPFeA
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10-22-2017, 12:25 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club American Coach Owners Club
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 245
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2002 Monaco Executive with a 370 ISL? Never heard of this. However I'd definitely get this checked asap climbing in elevation air is thinner your Cummins won't like it.
__________________
2004 Travel Supreme DS04
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit
2002 Newmar DSDP 4095 Cummins ISC 350
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10-22-2017, 12:42 PM
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#3
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 22
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Yep, 8.8L Cummins ISL 370
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10-22-2017, 04:49 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Nor'easters Club Holiday Rambler Owners Club
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Monadnock Region of New Hampshire
Posts: 1,519
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My first observation is that the tach (your tach is on the left, correct?) is bouncing a lot more than is expected. This leads me to think something electrical is going on.
__________________
My name is Peter, and I'm never going to grow up.
- Winnebago Era 2010 Class B
- Holiday Rambler 2006 Ambassador 40-DFD Class A
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10-23-2017, 09:42 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Over the next hill, around the next curve...
Posts: 5,659
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Building on nehog's input. Look for loose or compromised connections. Unplug harnesses, spray with electrical cleaner, and reconnect. Look for loose/dirty ground connections.
Even though your description does not seem to indicate this, air gauges can for sure be bad. A double check of you air cleaner would not hurt...
Will follow this thread, as we have the ISL370 (It's an 8.9 liter engine.) in our 04 Allure (Engine was built by Cummins in July of 03.).
If your towing a toad, and have another driver, suggest you make the next days travel with as little load on the coach as possible...
Best of luck to you,
Smitty
__________________
07 Country Coach Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600
Roo II was our 04 Country Coach Allure 40'
OnDRoad for The JRNY! Enjoy life...
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10-23-2017, 10:07 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Monaco Owners Club Vintage RV Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: anywhere U.S.A, Currently back home in Thailand!
Posts: 4,245
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If it is indeed the boost jumping, first thing I would check is the boots, (rubber with a spring around them) that connect the turbo to the ATA after cooler! There will be 4 of them, check to make sure they are not split, rubbed, or the clamps are tight and not broken! The best way to do this is get right in there and make sure nothing has rubbed them, and look them over really good! It also could be the ATA cooler may be cracked but if that it would be a "all the time" thing and not intermittent! The way a shop test's them is with air pressure, and see how long they hold it! Hope it is something simple like a elect conn. loose, or a bad boot or clamp! Good Luck! Rail
__________________
Retired, and "Always on Holiday!"
1996 Monaco Windsor 38PB, "Mona" 275 HP., 8.3 Cummins, 3060 Allison 6 speed, 2001 PT Cruiser, "Bailey"
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11-06-2017, 09:38 AM
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#7
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 22
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I haven't been able to log in for some reason from my tablet, but have been reading your responses/ideas which are much appreciated.
(Smitty77)I was only towing an 800lb SeaDoo on an aluminum PWC trailer, so no real worries as far as an additional load. (I normally have a Tahoe loaded on a double stacker trailer with the SeaDoo up top, which would have been a concern.) I did a cursory inspection of the turbo (no leaks, loose connections/clamps, etc.) before beginning an alternate route through the less hilly roads of eastern Colorado. The surging only occurred twice following downshifts on uphill climbs and seemed to be limited to speeds in excess of 65mph (I was building speed on the downhills and trying to slingshot through the uphill without applying throttle.) During normal acceleration from stops and anything below 60mph, all was good.
We finally have some nice weather here and I've got the rig on my buddies 5 acres with access to a full shop. I also just received a new air filter (service indicator is yellow, but worth a shot) as well as new primary and secondary fuel filters. I've also ordered the lube/main Allison filter kit for when I'm back there going through everything. I'll update this with what I figure out.
I'm actually hoping (but fearing) that it's an electrical issue. While parked on a large plot of land during the first Colorado snow, a breaker would randomly trip and I discovered that mice had decided to make this their home. I found the wire they had chewed by ohm testing each run back to the breaker. One entry point was via scurrying up the shore power line and into the bay area, ultimately finding their way into the main service channel where air lines, electrical and everything imaginable and crucial to operation exists. I'll call Monaco tomorrow and get a schematic for what exactly is routed through that channel and narrow down "what items would do what" if damaged. I have a feeling that this is where my investigation will end, but hopefully it's something obvious in the engine compartment before getting to that point.
Smitty77, there appears to be some discrepancies with engine displacement: My engine dataplate is stamped "C.I.D./L. 538/8.8 ISL 370"; the Monaco owner's manual states "ISL 370 8.8L"(pg. 375) and my Cummins Quickserve Profile "Dataplate" (based on ESN) has "Marketing Model Name ISL 370" and "Service Model Name: ISL CM554." The "ISL Engine Familiarization" bulletin states "8.9 Liters [543 C.I.D.] Cummins tech support says it's an 8.8L.
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11-06-2017, 11:17 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Over the next hill, around the next curve...
Posts: 5,659
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"Smitty77, there appears to be some discrepancies with engine displacement: My engine dataplate is stamped "C.I.D./L. 538/8.8 ISL 370"; the Monaco owner's manual states "ISL 370 8.8L"(pg. 375) and my Cummins Quickserve Profile "Dataplate" (based on ESN) has "Marketing Model Name ISL 370" and "Service Model Name: ISL CM554." The "ISL Engine Familiarization" bulletin states "8.9 Liters [543 C.I.D.] Cummins tech support says it's an 8.8L."
Thanks for both the update, and fingers still crossed for you! And appreciate the education on the 8.8 vs 8.9 (And I see many just seem to road up to ISL9 !). Not a big deal, but nice to know the info you shared. Mine is just a bit newer then yours, July 2003 build date by Cummins, and it is stamped 8.9.
Look forward to what find as 'root cause'... (Suppose it could have been a failing air filter, that was not allowing enough volume of air for the turbo at higher RPM's.)
Smitty
__________________
07 Country Coach Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600
Roo II was our 04 Country Coach Allure 40'
OnDRoad for The JRNY! Enjoy life...
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11-06-2017, 11:40 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,317
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You are describing bad fuel filters. The lose of boost is due to lack of fuel.
Although the engine reaches its max RPM at slower speeds, it isn't under as much load as climbing a hill in high gear.
Before changing both air and fuel filters, do one or the other so you know what the cure is.
I've seen rubber intake elbows partly collapsed and still make a lot of power. If you indicator is in yellow, and not red, I doubt that that's the problem.
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11-06-2017, 12:53 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Over the next hill, around the next curve...
Posts: 5,659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat
You are describing bad fuel filters. The lose of boost is due to lack of fuel.
Although the engine reaches its max RPM at slower speeds, it isn't under as much load as climbing a hill in high gear.
Before changing both air and fuel filters, do one or the other so you know what the cure is.
I've seen rubber intake elbows partly collapsed and still make a lot of power. If you indicator is in yellow, and not red, I doubt that that's the problem.
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I agree with the advise to do this in phases so you'll hopefully know which one it is, if one of the cures the problem !
And air indicators have been known to go bad. I helped a gent four or five years ago that chased a similar problem with his C7. He never even looked at the air filter, as it was only 18 months since he'd put it in, and the indicator still was in the green. When we finally pulled it out, we could see he'd been lucky. He'd bought the filter off one of those online filter warehouses (Whose name I won't mention, but think of the buildings a Farm has...). In fact, he still had a second one in his garage, as he bought two air filters, as well as fuel and oil filters too at the same time. The unopened filter he had in his garage, had an Expiration Date 4 months older then when he bought all of the stuff. (He pulled his receipt to check it.) He was not aware that filters had Shelf Life and or Expiration Dates.
The one in his coach was both caked in dried mud (He had got some moisture into the canister shortly after getting quite a coating of dust.), as well as we could see signs of filter breakdown. (Outside, not inside - or he could have lost a turbo.)
He weint to a local shop and bought a new air gauge, put the old filter back in, and it showed Red within just a few minutes of high RPM running of the engine. So his old gauge had gone South on him. New filter installed (Close inspection of the air flow part of the canister, showed no signs of dust build up or 'dusting', so he was lucky on that account.), reset the air gauge, and repeated the test. Green gauge, that this time he felt he could believe !
So while the odds are a fuel delivery problem of some kind is involved, air restriction could also inhibit an engine at higher RPM. But, the described surging, is more like to be fuel, as air would be more consistently lower boost (Or at least that is what I'd expect.).
I also will share that many owner's of DP's had found out the hard way about an 'inline filter' from the tank to the normal Fuel Filters we more conventionally replace. So keep an eye out, and perhaps network with other owner's of your same coach, to see if a inline fuel filter could be stashed some where you may not be aware of !
Best again to all,
Smitty
__________________
07 Country Coach Magna Rembrandt 45' ISX600
Roo II was our 04 Country Coach Allure 40'
OnDRoad for The JRNY! Enjoy life...
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11-07-2017, 08:42 AM
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#11
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Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 22
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I'll definitely be doing everything in stages. I'm a big fan of the pluck-n-chuck military repair standards for determining what went wrong. Seeing as to how I'll be emptying my bays to access the service channel, it should reveal any hidden in-line filter.
The fuel/air filters will be the first inspected and/or replaced. I bought a Donaldson air filter from Amazon for under $130 and it has a manufacture date of 10/2/2017 (It routinely indicates that the item will be shipped in approx. 2 months after ordering, but keep checking back because 1 or 2 will pop up after manufacture and have free 2 day shipping)
I'm not a fan of adding things that could lead to future failure (except women), but what about adding fuel pressure sensors to the primary filter out and secondary filter out? Seems like it would be a legitimate way of monitoring blockage prior to it affecting components such as the turbo. And why isn't such a thing on my cluster anyway?
It's officially snowing right now and today is my first in a long time without work related obligations. So, I'll think this over and read some feedback. Nothing productive is going to happen whereas my body does not operate in 20 degree weather, but thankfully this AquaHot system does (for now if bad fuel)
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11-07-2017, 12:28 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Where ever I park it
Posts: 1,345
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What kind of a sound does the turbo make when it 'cuts out'? Is it a woof, woof, woof sound? Can you hear any kind of hiss when it acts up?
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2005 Dodge Ram Four Door Dually Southern Comfort Conversion
2017 Forest River 365RK
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11-07-2017, 12:48 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Kamloops, BC, 60 miles from the Center of the Universe according to the Rinpoche, of the SF monks.
Posts: 7,305
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Turbo stall?
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Happy Glamping, Norman & Elna. 2008 Winnebago Adventurer 38J, W24, dozens of small thirsty ponies. Retired after 40 years wrenching on trucks! 2010 Ford Ranger toad with bicycles or KLR 650 in the back. Easy to spot an RVer, they always walk around with a screwdriver or wrench in one hand!
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11-07-2017, 02:04 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MnTom
What kind of a sound does the turbo make when it 'cuts out'? Is it a woof, woof, woof sound? Can you hear any kind of hiss when it acts up?
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What you are describing are both symptoms of loose hose connections or bad gaskets on the pressurized side of the intake piping and manifold.
The turbo is not cutting out, the boost pressure is leaking out.
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