Prime Anti-freeze/Coolant

[Mr_D]

Cummins ISC 350, MM Spartan chassis.

Replaced the coolant using Bret Wolfes write up. Refilled using Prime Anti-freeze/Coolant for all vehicles, ASTM D3306 and D4985 and distilled water. I also added DCA4 in accordance with Cummins support and a calculator I found here.
Have tried several different coolant test strips (five so far) and can't get a good Molybbdate reading on them. I used 3 strips I already had (one way out of date, two Jan 2011). At the Albany FMCA rally I picked up two more strips dated June 2011, same results.
The people manning the booth said some coolants don't give a good Molybdate reading and I should check the coolant to see.

The Prime bottle lists the contents as:
ethylene glycol (107-21-1)
diethylene glycol ( 111-46-6)
sodium 2-ethyl hexonate (19766-89-3)
sodium neodecanoate (31548-27-3)

Can you tell if I have bad strips or just won't get a molybdate reading with this coolant?

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D Cummins ISC 350, MM Spartan chassis. Replaced the coolant using Bret Wolfes write up. Refilled using Prime Anti-freeze/Coolant for all vehicles, ASTM D3306 and D4985 and distilled water. I also added DCA4 in accordance with Cummins support and a calculator I found here. Have tried several different coolant test strips (five so far) and can't get a good Molybbdate reading on them. I used 3 strips I already had (one way out of date, two Jan 2011). At the Albany FMCA rally I picked up two more strips dated June 2011, same results. The people manning the booth said some coolants don't give a good Molybdate reading and I should check the coolant to see. The Prime bottle lists the contents as: ethylene glycol (107-21-1) diethylene glycol ( 111-46-6) sodium 2-ethyl hexonate (19766-89-3) sodium neodecanoate (31548-27-3) Can you tell if I have bad strips or just won't get a molybdate reading with this coolant?

I looked up that Prime coolant. It does say it is ASTM D4985 which means it has to have an SCA added to it. From the list of chemistry above, it an OAT coolant. You are using a coolant that should not be used in Cummins engines in that this coolant contains 2-ethyl hexanoate (ethyl hexanoic acid) or 2-EH for short. The 2-EH coolant has been proven to cause degradation of silicon rubber seals and coolant hose. When you sent me a personal email, Mr. D, I failed to tell you that at that time when I replied to it.

You should remove that coolant as it appears to have no silicate additives which will protect silicon rubber gaskets, hose, and seals.

Your question was about testing for molybdate. You indicated in your reply to me that you used DCA4 liquid. Not knowing your system size, I can make the general statement that to precharge a system to one unit DCA4 concentration per gallon of mixed coolant requires 3.2 ounces of DCA4 liquid. It would have been better to precharge to around 2.0 units per gallon as a starting point. An easier method would be to use one pint DCA4 liquid (p/n DCA60L) per two gallons of coolant volume yielding 2.5 units per gallon.

Since you indicated that you were having difficulty reading the molybdate level but not the nitrite, I am certain you are using our CC2602A or B test strips packaged in foil wrappers. We have had some problems with these.

Go back to the Cummins Engine forum and scan down until you see a thread I started Fleetguard 3-Way Coolant Test Strips, CC2602A and CC2602B

[Perry White]

Just go get Shell ELC flush it, install it and forget it. I paid $14/gal concentrate and mixed it with RO water. That's what mine came with from Spartan. Put a plain coolant filter on and your done.

[Mr_D]

Gary:
Hmm, well I guess I'll have to find some "concentrated" stuff and do the whole thing again as I didn't know about the 2-ethyl hexanoate not being usable. Nothing in my books says anything about it.
I have to use the concentrate as my system is 12 gallons and I can only drain 8½ gallons of it, leaving 3½ gallons. If I used a 50/50 premix I'd only have about 30% coolant/water mix.
I used 96oz of DCA 4 for my 12 gallon system after flushing with tap water once, then twice more with distilled water and running the unit to bring it up to temp. Mixed the DCA in as I put the coolant in along with distilled water. I also put in a no additive filter.
Looks like I did everything right except used the wrong coolant as I didn't know any different from reading the books I have.
And I did read the thread, that's where I got your email address from. You will find my entry at the very bottom of the replies.

[Mr_D]

I put in 6 pints of DCA 4 which should give the 2.5 units per gallon.

Off to NAPA for the coolant and Wal*Mart for more distilled water tomorrow. We're not headed out again till July 4th weekend but I do have to finish installing a new dishwasher and gas range in the stick house also. Got the new over the stove microwave and refer done a few weeks ago.

[Mr_D]

Just looked at the bottle of NAPA Extended Life coolant I used on the generator and find it also contains 2-ethyl hexanoat. Thought that was a good one to use but I guess not, at least for the Cummins engine.

[Mr_D]

Went to NAPA looking for coolant, they had one that was on the list I got, but it requires SCA. Their books show another one bun they didn't have it and don't show any at other local stores or the warehouse in Portland OR.
Went to Wal*Mart and found that what I used last time (not the Prime I now have) found that it also contained the 2-ethyl hexanoate also. So I guess I've had the wrong coolant in the MH for some years now and no apparent harm. But now that I know I'll change out the Prime anyway.

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perry White Just go get Shell ELC flush it, install it and forget it. I paid $14/gal concentrate and mixed it with RO water. That's what mine came with from Spartan. Put a plain coolant filter on and your done.

Perry,

See my latest thread on Cummins Cooling System Maintenance and coolant engineering standard. If the Shell OAT coolant you are referring to is Shell Rotella ELC, there could be issues with some gaskets in your engine. Most Cummins engines used silicon rubber edge molded gaskets in the cooling system. Most vehicles use silicon rubber coolant hose (blue cover with orange liner). Rotella ELC is not friendly to this elastomer. If you are using Shell ULTRA ELC, there is little likelihood of any elastomer issues as Shell's new nitrite-free OAT coolant

[spike45]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_D Went to NAPA looking for coolant, they had one that was on the list I got, but it requires SCA. Their books show another one bun they didn't have it and don't show any at other local stores or the warehouse in Portland OR. Went to Wal*Mart and found that what I used last time (not the Prime I now have) found that it also contained the 2-ethyl hexanoate also. So I guess I've had the wrong coolant in the MH for some years now and no apparent harm. But now that I know I'll change out the Prime anyway.

Mr_D,

If you have used that coolant for years with no apparent coolant leaks developing or coolant in the oil, it may well be that your model of ISC does not have silicon rubber gaskets. Some models do not or have minimal silicon.

While it does not meet Cummins engineering standard for coolant, I think you can still use it as you have proven experience and no issues.

Gary

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perry White Just go get Shell ELC flush it, install it and forget it. I paid $14/gal concentrate and mixed it with RO water. That's what mine came with from Spartan. Put a plain coolant filter on and your done.

Where did you find it for $14/gal concentrate? Freightliner in Portland OR wants $26/gal for the CAT ELC, they don't carry Shell. NAPA wants $27/gal for the only one they carry that is correct.

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 Mr_D, If you have used that coolant for years with no apparent coolant leaks developing or coolant in the oil, it may well be that your model of ISC does not have silicon rubber gaskets. Some models do not or have minimal silicon. While it does not meet Cummins engineering standard for coolant, I think you can still use it as you have proven experience and no issues. Gary

Well, the "experience" was unintended!!!

For some reason there are lots of people out there that think they know what to use better than the engineers that designed, tested, manufactured and warrantied their equipment!

I played that "game" in my younger years, cost a lot of money when I was wrong!!

[Perry White]

Here's the bill. I called for more for my Ford diesels and it's still the same price

[Mr_D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spike45 Mr_D, If you have used that coolant for years with no apparent coolant leaks developing or coolant in the oil, it may well be that your model of ISC does not have silicon rubber gaskets. Some models do not or have minimal silicon. While it does not meet Cummins engineering standard for coolant, I think you can still use it as you have proven experience and no issues. Gary

Is there any way to tell from the engine serial number? I'll have to check my records to see how long ago I used the coolant with 2-ethyl hexanoate. Maybe I'm lucky or just a day away from hose failure!!