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Old 06-08-2016, 04:59 PM   #43
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Wow to Air Baron - I feel for you - very similar circumstances to ours except the mechanical damage is even worse than what we experienced.


Note to all interested: Got fuel test back - was done by Cummins organization. Showed excessive particles ranging from 4 times max for greater than 4 micron and 2 other categories were 2X in one category and greater than max allowed in other category. Not sure what this means about the source of the particles - no identification of material was done so only two sources that come to my mind is the fueling places and the return line from the caps pump if I understand correctly how the fuel delivery and return works. When the service people are available, I will find out what their more informed view of the source of particles is.


I am also having them put together a restriction detection setup so I can at least monitor what is going on with the fuel delivery system as we use the coach.


Tank clean is $1700 and not sure yet what the restriction monitor will cost.


Appreciate any comments about this situation as I am navigating uncharted ground for me. We wanted a diesel machine for the brakes and power for Colorado type terrain that had really been nerve wracking with our old Imperial gas rig but I did not appreciate how you can really get bit by some of the diesel issues with the vintage coach I decided on - thinking trouble free for at least a couple hundred thousand miles.


Regards. ColoradoHRE
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Old 06-08-2016, 09:08 PM   #44
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This is the actual test report with the grading results for the particle size. Note that the water, algae, and microbe are not an issue.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 20160607141611.pdf (110.9 KB, 96 views)
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Old 06-12-2016, 01:37 PM   #45
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Yep, there is a price to pay for use of any type of engine. Diesels are not a panacea to say the least, but they are the best available to supply the power needs of heavy haulers.


The failing grade given to the fuel in your tank implies you have bought some bad fuel somewhere in your travels. Although there was no problem with water and the resulting microbes that some have suffered, your particulate problem is outstanding. The fuel tester even recommended external filtering for such fuel, but that's not very practical for a motorist who depends on using fuel directly from the pump as we do.


I wonder what effect the bad fuel had on your engine. Did your fuel filters not stop the particulates from entering the engine? The fuel had very high amounts of particulates in the very small 4 and 6 micron ranges, and above-acceptable amounts in the larger 14 micron range. Did your filters stop these particulates? If not, why? Were the filters not fine enough to catch 4 and 6 microns? Some factory filters may not be that fine. If not, perhaps today's 2 and 3 micron filters available on the market should be added to your coach.


However, the finer the filter, the faster they can clog up. Perhaps this is why they are talking about adding a fuel restriction monitoring system on your rig. This should not be a very expensive addition, as it usually only involves a sensor that can report when the suction/vacuum side of the fuel system goes above a certain level, which could indicate fuel filter blockage. I've got a Navistar engine with a fuel restriction light that is triggered at about 7 inches of mercury, at which time I would need to look for why the light is on which likely would be loaded-up filters.


Best of luck in your efforts at getting back on the road. It is frustrating and expensive, but the payoff is in lots of fond memories to take the sting away.


PS: While you're at it, you might get them to put a fuel pressure gauge to monitor the pressure side of the fuel system. It should give you an indication from the pressure side of any problems developing that should be addressed.
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Old 06-30-2016, 07:54 AM   #46
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Thanks to Airstreamer6 for comments on fuel tank tests and filters.


Update on actions taken: Completed fuel tank cleaning - $1,600. Roadmaster chassis was a big help for the service people because of the mounting. Some chassis designs are a nightmare to lower the tank! Also had engine oil test done after some silver was observed in very initial part of draining during engine servicing but cut open filter did not show any metal. Test came back normal and Cummins RV service leader speculates that CAPS pump dumps oil directly back towards the pan and that the silver particles probably came from the replaced pump or others have speculated that there may be preserve stuff from the new pump that settled in the pan.


Future Plan:
Definitely going to do periodic fuel tank tests for $30 per pop for as long as we have the coach. Will do some follow up engine oil tests at $50 per pop to make sure that stays normal and then discontinue that if everything is okay for a couple of test periods. Will carry spare fuel filters and put priority on checking the visible well on the Fleetwood 1242 to see visible particles as well as water to do changing in the field. Perhaps frequent periodic changes would be the thing to do. Both the 1242 primary and the 1022 are 10 micron filters and Cummins does not support going to the small micron filters because of the faster restriction with small particles. This is obviously controversial because of any damage that can occur from small particles but their thoughts are that the larger particles are the damaging ones. Looking at our fuel tank contamination results show the huge number of small particles before cleaning.


Going to use the Lubricity additive that Smitty77 has been using on an ongoing basis and that other contributors to this thread have used. Cummins service has not supported doing additives but do not object doing it.


Working towards a fuel monitoring installation based on info and experiences in this thread that will flag restrictions and give some confidence that the fuel delivery is at proper levels to the CAPS pump. Working with the Cummins service people to come up with their ideas as Cummins does not have a monitor system for the ISC engine according to them. Still very active on doing this with the goal of knowing what is going on with fuel delivery to the pump that will fail if this function is not going on correctly. (Also related - the fuel lines replacement would be up to $3,000 and they are huge reliable hydraulic grade lines that have a very good failure history so in this case they are unlikely to be the cause of fuel starvation. I have been burned by this kind of reasoning before so ?) Frequent visible inspections of the current lift pump is also part of this plan. (according to Cummins service, the leaks are the source of air being pulled into the fuel stream and causing lower effective fuel cooling flow for the CAPS pump)
Any additional comments on this step would be appreciated.


At this time, I am not replacing the OEM lift pump with a third party one that would run full time rather than the 30 sec time of the OEM pump. This is a difficult decision because it is a super method to ensure that a good fuel supply is getting to the CAPS pump if restrictions do not get too high. At this point, I am going to try the monitor approach to fuel supply. I might be sorry of this and I believe Smitty77's approach is probably the best. Obviously Cummins does not support doing the mod and that enters my equation at this time. Perhaps not wise because Cummins will not assume any responsibility for any of my failures even though I stay within their OEM guides. I am not sure why Cummins has not made a change to their system other than perhaps reliability of a short burst lift pump rather than run all the time pressure.
Any other compare insights would be appreciated.


Summary: Contaminated fuel tank results is the only thing that has been established as the possible root cause of the multiple failures.


The design of the CAPS pump has vulnerabilities and that is obvious with the migration of the Cummins system to the next generation of fuel systems. So hopefully, with tender care and a lot of prevention actions - maybe we will not have a 4th failure during our coach operating life.
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Old 06-30-2016, 08:00 AM   #47
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I also want to sincerely thank each of the contributors to this thread. How great you are and I am grateful for your time and experience. It has been a great learning experience for me and hopefully all of us will benefit from this in our coaching endeavors. Again - thanks
Cullen Darnell - ColoradoHRE
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Old 06-30-2016, 09:21 AM   #48
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Thanks to Airstreamer6 for comments on fuel tank tests and filters

At this time, I am not replacing the OEM lift pump with a third party one that would run full time rather than the 30 sec time of the OEM pump. This is a difficult decision because it is a super method to ensure that a good fuel supply is getting to the CAPS pump if restrictions do not get too high. At this point, I am going to try the monitor approach to fuel supply. I might be sorry of this and I believe Smitty77's approach is probably the best. Obviously Cummins does not support doing the mod and that enters my equation at this time. Perhaps not wise because Cummins will not assume any responsibility for any of my failures even though I stay within their OEM guides. I am not sure why Cummins has not made a change to their system other than perhaps reliability of a short burst lift pump rather than run all the time pressure.
Any other compare insights would be appreciated.
I'm curious as to why Cummins does not support an aftermarket fuel pump, did they give you a reason?
Adding the fuel pump makes sense to me. On my coach (36 ft.) I have about fourty feet of fuel line to the tank. The CAPS has to pull fuel that distance plus through two filters. And some owners even change from a 10 micron filter to a 2 micron filter making the CAPS work even harder. And how do you tell when the filters need changing? Do you drive until there is loss of power or starting problems? If so your damaging the CAPS (like running you motor without oil). Most owners change them once a year, is than enough?
Your right when you say the fuel system needs monitoring and most people don't.

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Old 06-30-2016, 11:39 AM   #49
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Thanks TR4 for the response -
I agree with your observations fully. I did not get a reason for why they do not do that. The closest I got to that is they will not warrant any 3rd party restriction gauge because it creates a potential liability for them. That is what I got when I asked them to propose a fuel delivery monitor system for me. Where they have a Cummins part, there is no concern on their part about doing a warranted job is what I was told. If they put a 3rd party part in, they will not warrant that device. Of coarse the 3rd party may have a warranty on the device.
I am making assumptions all over the place about behavior, but my thinking is the CAPS system is an investment hole that Cummins is sidestepping every way they can and putting there money with up to date more trouble free engineered systems. Makes some financial sense when there is little to gain at the moment. Long term it may effect their customer base growth.
Smitty77 had Brevert do his job and if I had a local place like his, I would be dealing with them on this issue. I do not know of a place like that around Loveland or Denver Colorado. If someone does, I would really like to know about them.


Thanks again TR4 - for a great observation and question
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Old 06-30-2016, 11:43 AM   #50
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correction - their money not there money
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Old 07-01-2016, 07:44 AM   #51
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Looks like you have a good plan. I have considered replacing my FS1022 primary with a Racor S3201T and visible bowl. This would allow you to inspect fuel and contaminants entering the system from the tank. They are both 10 micron.
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Old 07-02-2016, 08:35 PM   #52
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When I re-pumped my system I use a 2 micron final filter just for peace of mind. Why take a chance with a10 micron final filter when a 2 micron will stop just about every thing that could plug an injector or cause other problems. I may have to change it more often but I feel better.

Good luck & Happy motoring
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Old 07-02-2016, 08:56 PM   #53
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When I re-pumped my system I use a 2 micron final filter just for peace of mind. Why take a chance with a10 micron final filter when a 2 micron will stop just about every thing that could plug an injector or cause other problems. I may have to change it more often but I feel better.

Good luck & Happy motoring
Don
10 micron will do the job very well.........At wide open throttle max boost, a 2 micron filter will starve the injector pump..........especially in time.
A friend of mine went through this, but in his case it someone installed the wrong filter and the engine would not run and pull good at WOT. Ran wonderful after getting the 10micron filter ....per Cummins.












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Old 07-05-2016, 10:34 AM   #54
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Can you provide details on where you get the fuel test done. Don't know if I want to know the answer. New caps last year
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:13 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by 4Fingers View Post
When I re-pumped my system I use a 2 micron final filter just for peace of mind. Why take a chance with a10 micron final filter when a 2 micron will stop just about every thing that could plug an injector or cause other problems. I may have to change it more often but I feel better.

Good luck & Happy motoring
Don
In addition to what Palehorse said, you keeping the Caps pump from getting enough flow to keep it cool. you will need to use 2 M filters in parallel to get the same flow rates as a 10M.

FWIW here is an interesting discussion about fuel and filters. In it is an interesting observation: that summer blend when cooled can block a 2M filter. Here also
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Old 10-31-2016, 10:44 AM   #56
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Twinboat gives good input. The CAPS takes very pulling/sucking fuel in from the tank, after the Lift Pump does the start up lifting. Any restriction of fuel flow can starve the CAPS, and that is not good.

My OEM Lift Pump was still working fine, ISL370 built July 2003, did not develop any leaks. However, I elected to proactively bypass the Lift Pump and installed a FASS Fuel Pump (pump only, no the duel filters). Alan of Brazel's, did a great install, leaving the OEM Lift Pump in place, and the plumbing available to allow it to be reengaged with a little adjustments, if ever needed.

I did this because I did not want to replace the Lift Pump with another Lift Pump. I also wanted to keep positive fuel pressure feeding the CAPS at all time, not just start up.

And, I always add extra lubricity at each fill up. I use Optilube in each tank. This also provides a bit more insurance to the CAPS.

As mentioned, the CAPS is both cooled and lubricated by fuel. So I try to give it all the help I can!

ColoradoHRE - Your second post, so welcome to the gang! And please close the loop back and let us know if they do find anything out that may have contributed to the early demise of the CAPS. Those are big ticket repairs, and not fun!

Best, be safe, have fun,
Smitty

I wanted to update that we've finished our first year with the FASS bypass of the Lift Pump. We just finished a 6 month trip of 8K miles, and had about 2.5K miles already on this mod.

All is working well. Due to some ECM Re-flashing, and replacement of the Fan Control Unit with the Source Engineering Thermal Valve mod, and a set of new tires with less improved Rolling Resistance - I cannot tell what caused our 1/4 - 1/3 MPG improvement over these last 10K+ miles. (And for sure, it could have just been the luck of our travels this year.) But my manually calculated MPG, adjusted for Generator and Hydro Hot usage, reflects this consistent improved MPG.

More power? Well not anything to say is pushing me back into the seat, and same factors above, but between all of the mods I feel we are able to pull long hills grades without engine working as hard. We can now pull one grade we know well in 4th gear, vs having to drop to 3rd before. (Just barely, but it is pulling the grade in 4th!). I suspect most of that is due to the fan running at only the RPM needed to maintain temperature. Where as before, it was jumping from Low to Medium, for most hill climbs, with about 1/4 to 1/3 of the longer grades, it would jump up to High speed off and on while climbing. So with the S.E. Thermal Valve, it is RPM wise consuming less power then the OEM set up.

I did not add a Fuel Pressure gauge. Thought about it, but my thoughts were that we'd had a 11 year old coach at that time, and the CAPS had sucked in the fuel in such away that I never felt we had a fuel delivery problem. With the FASS providing positive fuel flow at all times, I could not see it being any worse then the OEM setup. We have no inline fuel filter, and I maintain our Two Fuel Filters regularly. Yes, I suspect that a Fuel Pressure gauge could give me early warning of a bad batch of fuel, via gradually lower fuel pressure. But, decided to not add more components into the mix at the same time. For now, I'll keep running without it...

This thread covers the reasons for doing the added FASS (And or other companies products.). But just a reminder that for me, it was to do preventative maintenance on the Lift Pump. Ours was OEM, and I did not want to be on the road and have a trip delayed, and unknown group of mechanics, need to replace the Lift Pump. I'd also known coach owners that were on their second, and or third Lift Pump (Though I believe the newer Cummins Lift Pumps should be a more permanent fix.). Finally, the CAPS which is soo pricey - is both lubricated and cooled by fuel flow. This is why I went with the FASS, and bypassed the Lift Pump.

Long post, to say all is well, and I would change nothing on how Brazel's installed this unit on my coach. Very pleased.

Best to all, be safe, have fun,
Smitty
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