Starter Batteries

[Smitty77]

I posted this here, as I'm specifically looking for input on Starter Batteries in relation to ISL engines. The ISL, as is the ISC and CAT C9 are mid size block engines. I place the ISB (Especially the smaller 5.9 era.) and the CAT C7 into the small block category. And DD, ISM and above, and say CAT C10 and above - into the big block category. The bigger size the block/displacement, the more power a starter and thus starter battery - will need to get things going. (Over simplification, but you get my thinking!)

The other factor in starting batteries, is the combo of Chassis and or Coach Manufactures view of the world! So what is used in say a Monaco vs a Newmar, both with ISL, could be different in regards to starter batteries.

OK, for me today, my 04 Country Coach with ISL came stock with one 8D starter battery. And I've never had a problem with this, always seem to have more then adequate 'juice' to start the ISL. I replaced the starter battery when we first bought he used coat, with the CAT Maintenance Free 8D starter battery. (From a tip from a fell CC owner, who said it was the highest CCA 8D starter battery he could find at that time. I too looked around, and yep - at that time, it still was the highest CCA at 1500. And, I liked the idea of 'Maintenance Free' vs normal wet cell. (And yes "Maintenance Free" is NOT!).

So my question, request for input, is:

I'm thinking of replacing the CAT 8D starter battery with an AGM unit, when this one goes belly up (Or when I shift the House Batteries from AGM to Lithium in the future - which ever comes first!).

I can find 'starter' 8D AGM batteries, but they all have lower CCA. (Many show 1150, found one with I believe it was 1450.) The 1450 CCA battery manufacture I did not recognize.

I also find many 12V Group 27 and 31 AGM Starter Batteries. Again with lower CCA.

So I was looking for opinions on maybe use X's 2 of the Group 27 or 31 AGM's for my starter duty. Lighter and easier to handle. Do require more cabling.

What are some of you with ISC's/ISL's using for starter batteries, besides 8D's. What kind of CCA's are you finding supportive of the duty?

I also consider the fact that we do have robust 800AH of Lifeline AGM house batteries - always available to augment if ever needed. But, would prefer to have a properly size starter battery(s) to start with.

(The shift to AGM, is so that I can close off the mesh to the bottom of the current battery compartment, and install the Lithium House bank in that location. I'd augment the compartment with basement heat from the coach heating system.)

Not doing this tomorrow, maybe not even for another few years. (See no reason why I should not get a good 7-9 years out of the CAT 8D I have today. It did have one time where it lost a fuse to the charging system, and was down so low that I could not start the engine. But came back well with a good charge, and no signs of major damage (Sure it took some life out of it, but it was not stone dead, just (Princess Bride moment, Billy Crystal!) 'mostly dead'.

TIA for any input, and best to all. May the 'charge' be with you,
Smitty

[Mr_D]

Smitty: My CC came with 4 925 CCA no maintenance batteries, and I replaced them with the CAT batteries. My house batteries were 8D AGMs and the inverter/charger was set to AGMs.
The brochure says I should have 2 8D AGM's for starting batteries but as you know CC made running changes as their inventory of parts dwindled!

[CampingCajun]

My ISC came with 2 950 CCA batteries. Spins the hell out of it.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by CampingCajun

My ISC came with 2 950 CCA batteries. Spins the hell out of it.

On an ISX with the OEM starter the 4 - 925 CCA batteries will just barely start it sometimes. Real cure is a Denso geared starter which I have and just need to get it installed.

[twinboat]

Keep in mind that CCA is cranking amps at 0 degrees F.

If your not using the MH in cold climates, a bit less cranking amps will be fine.

[CampingCajun]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

On an ISX with the OEM starter the 4 - 925 CCA batteries will just barely start it sometimes. Real cure is a Denso geared starter which I have and just need to get it installed.

I have used the gear reduction starters before on some high compression gas engines. They do make a big difference.

[Smitty77]

Thanks gang. I was talking with my BIL (He will someday by an RV'er, but for now, he's a Boater!), and he talked about a fishing buddy of his that had two CAT C7's in his boat. This gent had recently replaced his two starter batteries, so my BIL called him to ask what he was running with. (Now the C7 is again, a smaller displacement engine then the ISC/ISL.). The gent said he'd replace two wet 8D Exide batteries, with two Mastervolt 8D AGM Starter Batteries.

I'd never heard of Mastervolt (Lots of batteries I've never heard of before!), so I checked West Marine's website. And this was what he is running with. (Though he did also mentioned if the had not given him a deal on these, he would have gone with a lower CCA Mastervold 8D AGM battery, and he felt that they would have been fine too.)

"AGM 12/270 12V AGM, Group Super 8D, 270 Ah, 1600 CCA, 20 5/8"L x 9 5/8"W x 10 5/8"H, Weighs 161lb"

Above is a copy from the below link, but notice the 1600 CCA available.

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/maste...es--P010976363

One thing I could not locate, was DoD Lifecycles for this battery(?).

I also noted that it was just about the same weight as my current CAT 8D Maintenance Free batteries. And that got me to thinking about a post I made here back in 2014, asking about the number of chassis batteries we were all running with.

wa8yxm pointe tout in this thread, that the virtues of X's 2 smaller 12V (Say Group 31) vs one mega 8D, is they're easier for one person to man handle in/out. (My paraphrasing of his observation!. And that two Group 31's will have similar CCA abilities and robustness of a single 8D. (Again, my paraphrasing.)

Here is that thread form 2014:

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/chas...ny-226972.html

So I'm going to do a bit more research on different AGM Group 31's in series, comparing CCA to the 8D. That Mastevolt 8D at 1600 CCA is the highest I recall seeing on a battery. (Well, again, the ones that I have heard of and looked at. For sure could be others with higher CCA's that I have not run into yet.)

Chances are I'd get my BIL (A big beastly man (Without the leisure suit!)...!) to help me when the time comes. So I'll probably still go with the highest CCA capacity I can find in an AGM, unless one manufacturer has a higher DoD Lifecycle rating then the others. Usually seem to all be about 1,000 in their ratings. With a few claiming as high as 2,000.

And yes, this update was just more ramblings not the subject. Maybe some of you might know about the Mastervolt, or some other AGM Starting Battery I should look into?

Oh, and before I wrap this post up. I've run into the term Dual Purpose on a few manufactures websites. (I think Trojan AGM's used that buzzword.) Does that mean they're good for both 'Deep Cycle' and 'Chassis Starter' duties too. Or is this more like the Marine Cycle buzzword I see like at Costco on some of their batteries.

And by the way, lots of Wiki's on batteries, but some seem to contradict the other info I can find on different manufactures websites... Seems like everyone uses buzzwords unique to their batteries!

Best to all,
Smitty

[jleamo1]

Smitty, my coach came with one 8D for the chassis. It now has 2 group 31's (already like this when we bought it). With that being said when I spec trucks for work with the ISL I spec them with 3 group 31 AGM. I am located in PA and it gets cold up here plus the fleet at work runs all year. Road tractors with a large bore Diesel I add one more group 31. They hold up just fine.

[wa8yxm]

Ok, My recommendation is this.
AGM batteries have nearly no advantage over Maintenance free in most applications.. now OPTIMA (A sub class of AGM) are great for off road use, Jeeps, 4 Wheelers, 4-Runners, Wave Runners and other "Send for your kiddneys Later" rides (I think Phillis Dillar used that line in a Bob Hope movie, Likely "Boy did I get a wrong number" buit not sure)

AGM's basically are an advantage to the battery maker,, They cost more

They do have one advantage. You need not respect "This side up" as you do with wet cells... You can mount them on end, or on side or even upside down (though I'd not recommend that) but that is the only real advantage.. Perhaps a SLIGHT increase in CA or CCA. but you already have more than you need, so that's not all that good anyway.

I'd save your money.

[Smitty77]

Originally Posted by jleamo1

Smitty, my coach came with one 8D for the chassis. It now has 2 group 31's (already like this when we bought it). With that being said when I spec trucks for work with the ISL I spec them with 3 group 31 AGM. I am located in PA and it gets cold up here plus the fleet at work runs all year. Road tractors with a large bore Diesel I add one more group 31. They hold up just fine.

Thanks for sharing your real world knowledge in cold weather areas!

In your opinion, for the RV'ing community (Like say me, with the ISL or others with ISC and CAT C9.) that do limited cold weather traveling - is a single 8D or X's 2 Grp 31's a reasonable starter battery bank? Factoring the ability to splice in the house (For me, 800AH of X's 4 L16 Lifelines.), as a 'boost' when/if needed?

I believe my battery compartment bay, with a future bank of Lithium batteries, will have room to stack a second level of starter batteries (Add a 3rd Grp 31 or two 8D's. Or maybe 8D on the bottom, with a Gap 31 stacked above (Though if adding more starter battery capability, I'd probably keep the batteries matched.)

And then that leads me to why I went with the CAT 8D Maintenance Free to start with, higher CCA capacity. The Mastervolt AGM tops the CAT's 1500 CCA by going up to 1600 CCA... (I did read positive reviews since my question about them above on boating forums. They get positive reviews, and have been around for several years. Oh, and they are pricey too!)

TIA for your thoughts on the need for bumping up starter battery capacity in our RV usage... (We've never had a problem with the few times we've been in cold weather. We spent a week at Strawberry Flats on Muncho Lake in Canada. Lows over the night were usually in the teens, with two nights into the single digits. Highs during the days, jumped up to mid 30's! The day we were leaving, we ran our Hydro Hot with the Engine heating loop on for 3-4 hours before we started the engine. I did do two full pre start cycles before actually starting the engine, which fired right up. And probably did not need to do the two pre starts.)

Again, thanks for your thoughts!
Smitty

[jleamo1]

My coach starts just fine with the 2 group 31's (keep in mind it sits plugged in from November to the end of March, our coach does charge the chassis and house bank). I have seen new Freightliner Medium duty trucks set up with only two from the factory with an ISL, its common. I added the additional since we have communications systems in the cabs and they tend to run awhile with the key off.
Interesting this topic came up since my 4, 6 volt wet cell house batteries are now 8 years old. I plan on replacing them this year with 6 volt AGM's. I saw my coach came with 8D's and often thought about switching back but I would need three to gain a benefit over the 6 volt batteries. Since we don't boondock (other than one night to sleep when on the road) I'm not sure I would gain enough to justify the cost ($600.00 more), plus our coach has an auto start generator, so if they get low it takes care of itself.
The owners manual must be a miss print, it states 4, 8D house batteries (6 volt) and one 8D chassis battery (12 Volt). 8D is not available in 6volt as I am told and there is no way to fit five of them on the battery storage slides, four yes, five NO.

[Smitty77]

jleamo1 - Thanks!!!

And understand your thoughts on the justification for the added battery capacity, since you really don't would not use it often. And I've seen many positive posts on the 'bang for the buck' and also happy user's of Fullriver batteries. Might want to price those too when you do the swap.

Smitty

[WILDEBILL308]

Until you figure it out You might look at a couple of groupe 31 start batteries. I got them from Freightliner (original equipment start batteries) for $69.95 ea. I would look and see if the sale is still going on.
Bill

[Smitty77]

wa8yxm & Wildebill308 - Thank you both for you posts. (wa8yxm - I somehow missed your post, probably I was responding to jleamo1's post about the X's 3 Grp 31 he spec'd for the trucks.)

I do get long winded, but in my first posts I pointed out that I'm currently thinking of using the battery compartment for a future lithium battery bank for the house. So I want to be able to close off the egg grate grill opening in the bottom of the compartment needed for wet cells. (And technically for AGM's too. But I'll make a decision that I feel AGM would be safe in the enclosed battery basement compartment.) I really do not need to do anything at this time, as the CAT MF 8D is still supporting us well. And the X's 4 L16's Lifelines are also going strong as well.

My post was 'early planning' for the future jump to Lithium. This could easily be 3-5 years out for the Lifeline's demise, as well as the chassis CAT could go that long too. IF the chassis goes out before I'm ready to swap over to the lithium house bank, I'll do a recheck on the current thinking, and probably go with the X's 2 Grp 31's AGM. Who knows what will be the battery choice at that time, perhaps Tesla will have a lithium based starter appropriate battery coming out of Reno by that time! (Kidding...)

My best to you both, and all,
Smitty