Community Forums

OldToolmaker · 07-17-2019, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piker

The whole >Dunning-Krueger thing is actually kind >of insightful... basically what they're >saying is that you don't really know >what you don't know.

Once you reach the point where you can honestly say to yourself that you don't know everything, your mind opens up and can accept new information.

>>Being able to admit you don't know >>what you don't know is actually an >>idea that I try to instill into the people >>that I am responsible for at work >>here...

The most difficult thing to get people to understand is that you won't punish them for making a mistake. Once you can get your people to tell you what they actually did, you can go from figuring out what went wrong to how to fix the problem.

>Anywhoo... OldToolmaker... are you >saying that you would not even pull the >pan and check the mains? Just run it?

Yeah. Our new house has Alcon wheels. They don't have a center hub and are located by the rather expensive 2-piece lug nuts on the studs. Aluminum wheels supporting 22,500 pounds at highway speeds over questionable pavement.
Relying on the studs for location.
Think about it.

>As far as the dowels are concerned... >are you of the opinion that the bolts are >doing most of the "holding" and the >dowels are basically just there for the >initial alignment?

Yes. You could easily add stripper bolts to the mix to help secure the location of the harmonic balancer, but now you're entering the reward-risk area where you need to ask yourself if the reward out weighs the risk of making things worse.

>Just trying to make the best decisions I >can, using the resources I have... >mentally and otherwise...

That's all we do and traveling the country with your family is one of the best decisions you've made.

Stop overthinking things. Why would you want to do now work that you *might* need to do later after ample warming?

My new 850 Fiat powered '68 SIATA doesn't have a harmonic balancer. Harmonic balancers are a comfort item that on the new hybrid automobiles are being replaced by the computer controlling the hybrid drive.

-cheers

And the software insists that I write something down here, so go and hug your wife and kiss your kids.

Piker · 07-17-2019, 07:36 AM

OldToolmaker, you and I think a lot alike, except I'm probably a little more obsessive compulsive. The team that I work with here is told almost incessantly that no one will be chastised for their mistakes... and no one ever is... and you are right, they are not afraid to admit mistakes. It's a good system. The only thing in my mind that really deserves reprimand is poor attitude, especially attitudes that stem from complacency or apathy. There is very little room for give and take on those two things in my book. In my experience, people in the workplace are kind of like your kids, (not children) and they thrive on reasonable expectations and reasonable boundaries. The highest expectations that are set, in my opinion, should be with regard to attitude. If the attitude is good, then everything else eventually falls in place.

Now back to the issues at hand... I called Cummins this morning, and they declined to answer any questions about doweling the damper. They said that since the repair was not a "by the book" repair, for liability reasons, they would not comment. They suggested I might be able to call a local service shop and get some guidance... but at that point, I think I would just be getting the opinion of the service guy, so I did not call.

I ended up calling Fluidampr. These guys are great, and really seem to know what they are talking about. I spoke with the same engineer that I talked to when we were stranded in Wyoming... (he remembered me...

) he said that even without the center post contacting the damper, two dowel pins would be sufficient for this application. He has only ever seen at most 3 dowel pins on a damper, and that was an extremely modified racing truck producing crazy horsepower and spinning crazy RPM.

So by process of elimination, I'm down now to just oil leaks.

-cheers

Piker · 07-17-2019, 06:18 PM

I pulled the fan tonight so I could get a better look at where the oil leaks might be coming from. The injection pump is definitely leaking around the governor housing, and also the throttle shaft... but after close inspection, it did not appear that all this mess could be coming from there. It kind of looks like it's leaking the same as it always has - it's wet here and there, with maybe one drip on the floor under the pump when you park.

It looks like the bulk of the leak is coming from the timing cover... toward the bottom. The bolts on the timing cover were definitely kind of loose, so I snugged them up, thinking this might slow the leak enough to satisfy me. The bottom two bolts on the cover are under the damper, so I thought "here we go..." I pulled the damper and discovered that the bulk of the leak is probably coming from the main seal on the crankshaft... you can see where streams of oil have run right out of the bottom of it, collecting dust into what looks like rivers. I didn't think that an oil leak here, would make a mess towards the FRONT of the RV, but I guess maybe there are weird doldrums and air currents under there? At any rate, the main seal is definitely toast.

So it looks like the cover has to come off... I'm not thrilled about that because I know in this environment I won't be able to keep everything as clean as I would like... but this oil leak has got to be fixed. It's only going to get worse. C'est la vie. Could be worse... motorhome could still be in Wyoming right now at the scrap yard.

cheers

NHRA225 · 07-17-2019, 06:34 PM

Why don't You just re-torque the cover to Spec and Spray it down w/Brake Cleaner, In fact - Spray all of the suspicious area's down and take a look see first --before you tear it apart .

Oversoul · 07-17-2019, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piker

So it looks like the cover has to come off... I'm not thrilled about that because I know in this environment I won't be able to keep everything as clean as I would like... but this oil leak has got to be fixed. It's only going to get worse. C'est la vie. Could be worse... motorhome could still be in Wyoming right now at the scrap yard.

cheers

Everyone needs a hobby.
We all know how you spend your free time.

Piker · 07-17-2019, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NHRA225

Why don't You just re-torque the cover to Spec and Spray it down w/Brake Cleaner, In fact - Spray all of the suspicious area's down and take a look see first --before you tear it apart .

That might be worth a shot... as I sit here thinking, i wonder why I don’t see oil sprayed out from behind the damper? There is a little dust cover on the main seal that spins with the crankshaft... it’s not coated with oil. I would think it would be, and that it would sling oil everywhere if the seal itself were leaking.

It could be that air currents are just causing the oil to pool under the main seal somehow. I just don’t know... I’m only guessing at pretty much all of this. In fact... that’s kind of how I live my life... guessing.

The down side is that every time I pull the damper, I have to replace that $50 friction washer...

if I still have another leak after torquing the cover and putting everything back together, I’ll be pulling the damper again. That friction washer really seems like a good idea to me...

Cheers

Piker · 07-17-2019, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oversoul

Everyone needs a hobby.
We all know how you spend your free time.

You mean splitting firewood and working 65 hours a week? Lol... I’ve got 16 cord put back now... should last me 4 or 5 years.

it’s true though, I spend most of my free time working on the old bus... and dreaming of all the places we might go.

Cheers

Dark Sky · 07-18-2019, 08:13 AM

I had good success one time finding the source of an oil leak by spraying the area with foot powder like Desenex (after the brake cleaner 'cleanup'). I traveled a few miles and got back under and could readily see where the leak was starting. Just a thought.

OldToolmaker · 07-19-2019, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piker

I pulled the fan tonight so I could get a better look at where the oil leaks might be coming from.

The bolts on the timing cover were definitely kind of loose, so I snugged them up, thinking this might slow the leak enough to satisfy me. The bottom two bolts on the cover are under the damper, so I thought "here we go..." I pulled the damper and discovered that the bulk of the leak is probably coming from the main seal on the crankshaft...

So it looks like the cover has to come off...

cheers

I don't know about your manufacturer, but Chrysler corporation, its flat-head 6 engines, reqiure the use of a centering guide when replacing the timing cover.

If your timing gear cover isn't doweled . . .

Piker · 07-19-2019, 08:29 AM

The timing housing is doweled, but the cover is not. There is a little plastic alignment tool that you use to slip the seal over the shaft after it’s been installed in the cover, and then the tool is removed.

At this point, I’m thinking the seal might not be leaking... or if it is, it’s minimal. The dust cover that rides on the crank is dry. The cover bolts, which also hold the case, were so loose around the bottom that I’m thinking they are responsible for most of the leaks. I can even see some oil seeping out from behind the case towards the top too. Given the environment in which removing the cover would have to take place, I think it’s worth it to try just tightening the cover and see what happens to oil usage. I think it will still leak oil, but maybe it will be a lot less.

I noticed there was water leaking from the water pump weep hole, so that, plus the thermostat which failed in the open position about 400 miles from home are getting replaced. The new friction washer is on order, plus a new cummins pump and thermostat... so by the end of next week it will all be back together and I’m calling it good for now.

We decided we are going to wait until after fall to start the siding project on the driver’s side... so we can make some day trips up to the Lake Erie peninsula On the weekends and enjoy the rest of the summer with the RV.

Cheers

OldToolmaker · 07-20-2019, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piker

Given the environment in which removing the cover would have to take place, I think it’s worth it to try just tightening the cover and see what happens to oil usage. I think it will still leak oil, but maybe it will be a lot less.

We decided we are going to wait until after fall to start the siding project on the driver’s side... so we can make some day trips up to the Lake Erie peninsula On the weekends and enjoy the rest of the summer with the RV.

Cheers

There is a television series made on the book Dexter Dreaming Darkly, called Dexter. You might want to watch an episode to get some tips on building a temporary and disposable clean room. The show isn't suitable for younger children.

Are you sure you don't want to put a plug in the weep hole? ;-)

Piker · 07-21-2019, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldToolmaker

Are you sure you don't want to put a plug in the weep hole? ;-)

I think I'm going to start referring to the entire engine bay as a "weep hole..." goodness knows I've shed enough tears back there.

Here's another question for the group... Fluidampr sells what they call a "Full Power Kit" - basically its a 1/2" thick washer with longer bolts that goes over top of the damper to help distribute clamping force. Here is a link: Full Power Kit

Here are my thoughts: This engine doesn't spin enough RPM or produce enough HP to need one of these... the kit was designed for pulling trucks and the price is a little hefty anyways. BUT... what if I made a hardened washer similar to this, without the barring hex, and only 1/8" thick... just for dowel pin retention? Remember that one of my dowel pins ended up more of a slip fit than a press fit, and I used loctite to try and retain them.

I could use H-13 tool steel at around 50 rockwell that would be extremely tough, meaning it will deform to a certain degree before it will crack... but it's also fairly hard, so the bolt heads would not dig into it when tightened down. This would give positive retention on the dowels, and I would never have to worry about them working their way out. I would lose 1/8" of thread engagement, but the rule of thumb on fasteners is that 1.5 X thread diameter yields more thread strength than bolt strength. Right now, the bolts have about 2.5 X's the thread diameter of engagement... with a 1/8" washer, it would be 2.3 X's the thread diameter. What do you guys think? Maybe there is some other reason why the bolts are so long in this application?

I splurged and paid a premium for the cummins brand water pump and thermostat... and when I say premium, I mean premium by 4 times $$. These items actually arrived yesterday but I'm still waiting on the friction washer from Fluidampr. Once I get the damper back on, I''m going to back the RV out of the garage and pressure wash the CAC and Radiator while the fan is removed... then I'll replace the pump and thermostat and put the fan and pulleys back on all at one shot.

I can really see the allure of a side radiator in one of these now...

-cheers

guardrail53 · 07-21-2019, 09:11 AM

Piker, I think your washer idea is a great one! And it will give you pease of mind!

Yes, a side radiator was a "make or break" when I was looking! Rail!

dennis45 · 07-21-2019, 01:37 PM

Lots of advice for you Piker but, don't loose site of the Forrest for the Trees.
The reason your damper failed was Not because of the method it was attached.

There are a few thousand of these engines running quite successfully with the OEM attachment.

The one and only reason yours failed is because it was Twenty Plus years old and started to come apart. As you are likely aware by now, when an engine is rebuilt, a new damper is installed for the same reasons bearings, rings, seals etc are replaced.