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Old 03-25-2013, 11:01 AM   #1
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OK, who knows "AN" fittings (on fuel filter base)

Gents,
As many of you followed my thread on the infamous "no start" condition after a fuel filter change, there was lots of opinions, expertise, ideas, remedies and more as you came back to me with your thoughts. I most definitely appreciated all who helped. And as you would have read, the cause was the fact that during the absence of the filter (in the midst of being changed), that left an "OPENING" in the fuel line all the way to the tank.

Well, in my case, that meant the fuel drained all the way back to the tank and created a huge air pocket, around 25 or more feet. And I had one heck of a time, AND SO DID MY STARTER, trying to compensate for that goof up.

Well, that's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN TO ME AGAIN!!!!! Now, some will agree with this plan A I've got in my mind and some, might not. But for those that do agree, I'm GOING to install, two shut off valves at that filter base. One will be in the line to the tank and the other of course, will be in the line to the transfer pump. So, if and when, at any time, that filter must be removed, either for a routine change or, an emergency change in the field or on the road someplace due to water infiltration or whatever, no matter what my fuel level will be at the time, or, whether or not I will be facing up or down hill, I can simply SHUT OFF THE FLOW, IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, and change filters, right then and there.

Now, hopefully, that scenario will never happen but, I'd like to be prepared WAAAAAAAY in advance, should it happen.

So, now to the issue. That filter base, is, most likely, the same filter base many of you have. There is NO bleed port, no plug etc, on that base anywhere. It's simply a block of aluminum, machined to have the base for the filter, and an inlet and an outlet, for the fittings for the fuel lines. Now, screwed into the inlet and outlet are two, 90 degree fittings with NPT on the part that enters the filter base. But, on the other end of those brass fittings are, what I'm pretty sure, what's called "AN" type ends.

They are a tapered "cone" type end. The side for the inlet, is larger than the side for the outlet, to the pump. The inlet side uses a 13/16" wrench and the outlet side uses a 3/4" wrench. Now, I've done a bit of research and found a couple of charts that represent "AN" fittings and sizes etc. And, if it posts right, here's one of them:



I've tried to measure the threads on both the inlet and outlet sides and the inlet sure comes close to the "3/4" diameter thread size. And, the outlet side is larger than the 9/16" size but, not by too far. Those sizes, based on my close but not exact measurements, appear to represent the AN sizes of -8 and -6 sizes. I wish I were more edumakated on this stuff but, I gotta learn sometime.

Anyway, below is the top contender for the valve application that will be used on both sides. It's small, clean, not cumbersome, and should be easy to operate without a large handle hitting any obstruction in order to "close" or "open".
HyperRacing - Online Store - 42-160 - Fuel Shut Off Valve with 6AN Fittings

As you can see, it will come with a couple of "AN" fittings. If, I suspect my measurements are correct, the way it comes will be perfect for the outlet side. All I'd need is a double swivel AN for installing it on the original fitting. Then, put the hose onto the bottom of the new fitting, DONE with that side. But, for the other side, I think, I might need two larger AN fittings. And, I'd need a larger double swivel for connection onto the original fitting of the inlet side.

So, to any of you "plumbing" experts out there in fitting ville, especially in the automotive world, can you confirm anything I've said here? I'm still considering the addition of the secondary filter and primer pump but, that's down the road, so to speak.
Scott
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:24 AM   #2
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It probably is an "AN" but I'm not at my RV to see what I have.

You can have a look here for fittings:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/d...fittings-hoses
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:42 AM   #3
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ACS FREE FLOW ONE-WAY CHECK VALVE from Aircraft Spruce

If you have room you can install one of these on the incoming side of the filter mount. I used these on my wing tanks to allow air in but prevent fuel from running out.

I cannot visualize why you would need a valve on the output side unless the filter is mounted low. Mine is up higher than the fuel rail so no issues for me. In that case the check valve would work there too. I had to install a check valve in my swimming pool plumbing system due to water running back and emptying the pipes. It is much larger of course.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruceisla View Post
It probably is an "AN" but I'm not at my RV to see what I have.

You can have a look here for fittings:
http://www.summitracing.com/search/d...fittings-hoses
bruceisla,
I thank you sir for the link. My problem is I'm cheap. While I want something that's dependable and will not give me any trouble down the road, I've checked out Summits products more than once and, they're seriously prowd of their products. For the one shut off valve they have, (I don't have it linked here), they want $53.00 for it. It's the same exact valve at Home Depot for $9.00. It just doesn't have "Aero" Racing stamped on it. Thanks again Sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YC1 View Post
ACS FREE FLOW ONE-WAY CHECK VALVE from Aircraft Spruce

If you have room you can install one of these on the incoming side of the filter mount. I used these on my wing tanks to allow air in but prevent fuel from running out.

I cannot visualize why you would need a valve on the output side unless the filter is mounted low. Mine is up higher than the fuel rail so no issues for me. In that case the check valve would work there too. I had to install a check valve in my swimming pool plumbing system due to water running back and emptying the pipes. It is much larger of course.
YC1,
I don't have a picture at the minute but, mine and, many, many others, including Frieghtliner and Fleetwood, not to mention more manufacturers, do have the filter mounted low, just behind the radiator, visible from the rear of the coach. It is quite lower than the fuel transfer pump. And, as I've stated earlier in my other thread about my no start problem, I cannot see how the fuel drained from that pump, back down to the filter base, without having an avenue for air to replace it which, theoretically, there isn't any. And, there was not one single drop that dripped out as I removed that old filter. But, none the less, it did drain out and, I was stuck with not only a 25'+ air pocket in the line from the tank to the filter but also, in the 5' of line from the filter to the pump.

I definitely understand the principle of a check valve and it's application. But, I want this to be controlled by "ME". I don't want to take a chance that there's a possibility of a malfunction of something I have no control over. So, that's why installing the valves are all "ME" and I have control over the flow of fuel. Thanks again for your time and suggestions. Very much appreciated.
Scott
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:09 PM   #5
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Yes indeed .... Summit ain't cheap but I actually meant they are a good "Reference Document".
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:26 PM   #6
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AN stands for "Army Navy". Fittings and hose are sized in 1/16" increments: -8 equals 8/16 or 1/2" inside diameter hose. AN fittings use a 37 degree flare on the fittings vs 45 degree for SAE.

AN hose and fittings are generally used in race cars and aircraft, so they are priced accordingly. As far as race car parts prices go, Summit Racing has some of the best prices available.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:48 PM   #7
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Fireup, I have not been as active on this forum as I used to be since I got my Tiffin, so I don't remember your "starting woes" thread, but I can tell you this. I changed the fuel filter many times on my 2003 Journey DL and never had an issue.

I made sure that the filter was full, immediately took the engine up to 2000 rpm, and held it there for about 2 minutes. Are you sure that you are just not in need of another project?
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:36 PM   #8
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Fireup, I have not been as active on this forum as I used to be since I got my Tiffin, so I don't remember your "starting woes" thread, but I can tell you this. I changed the fuel filter many times on my 2003 Journey DL and never had an issue.

I made sure that the filter was full, immediately took the engine up to 2000 rpm, and held it there for about 2 minutes. Are you sure that you are just not in need of another project?
ernieh,
Laughing, while I like to "tinker", I have plenty of maintenance on this beast to keep me busy much less "create" projects. The issue I had in starting this rig after the fuel filter change was, for the most part, caused by me. But, there were, as explained in that thread, other circumstances that prevailed, causing the problems that came about. What I'm finding out more and more, not only on this forum but, in real life, goofing around with this rig and hands on other Horizons, Meridians, a year or two older and newer is, they're by far, not the same in many ways.

I have read so many times on this forum and others that people say, "mine is like this and yours should be the same". Well, I've proved that theory wrong several times. Even from the same year Horizons, with the same engine, I've found sustantial differences. I've even had CAT techs and parts people say, "You've got TWO fuel filters on that rig". I practically had to drag them out to verify that there's only ONE. Anyway, I certainly appreciate all of everyones help here. Very much appreciated.

So, while many folks here have not had any issues of "Restarting" their rigs after either a primary only or, primary and secondary fuel filter change, I did and, I don't want to have that problem EVER AGAIN. So, this project is for me and my piece of mind. I can do it for real cheap, with products from the local hardware store or, Home Depot or, go the expensive route and order stuff from Summit or any other high end supplier.

I just called a local hose and rubber supply outlet here in San Diego/El Cajon area and they've got everything I need. I'll be heading down tomorrow to pick it all up. Nice day for a motorcycle ride.
Scott
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:36 AM   #9
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Scott,
Have you taken the hose assemblies off at the fitting to see what style of fitting this is?
When I was design at Caterpillar up until 2009 (retired) we used SAE style fittings for most applications such as 35 deg flare/45 deg flare or ORFS ("o-ring" style fitting). Theses fitting would have an "o-ring" in the face of the fitting to seal against leaks. The flare fitting were being phased out starting in the late 80's since they were prone to leaks from over tightening.
We never used aircraft fittings in any system even the machines sold to the government. Most of the fittings either came from fitting manufactures such as Parker or Anchor to name a few.
So you do not need to purchase aircraft fittings for you application just purchase what is compatible with the existing fitting in the fuel filter housing.
Jim W.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:10 AM   #10
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Scott, I had the same problem with my 04 meridian as far as the fuel draining back to the fuel tank and luckily I had a friend helping me and we used the air hose in the fuel tank and that helped me get it started. I did not have the problem with the fuel disappearing on the rail side thank goodness. But I am looking at changing my filter head to the one that will accept the primer pump so that I will not have the problem in the future. I am looking at this mod very interestingly so please keep us up on how it works out for you.

Thanks for all that you do in keeping us all informed.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimcumminsw View Post
Scott,
Have you taken the hose assemblies off at the fitting to see what style of fitting this is?
When I was design at Caterpillar up until 2009 (retired) we used SAE style fittings for most applications such as 35 deg flare/45 deg flare or ORFS ("o-ring" style fitting). Theses fitting would have an "o-ring" in the face of the fitting to seal against leaks. The flare fitting were being phased out starting in the late 80's since they were prone to leaks from over tightening.
We never used aircraft fittings in any system even the machines sold to the government. Most of the fittings either came from fitting manufactures such as Parker or Anchor to name a few.
So you do not need to purchase aircraft fittings for you application just purchase what is compatible with the existing fitting in the fuel filter housing.
Jim W.
Jim W,
Well Sir, I'm always learning on this thing. I kind of assumed that they "might" be "AN" fittings prior to disassembly. But, when I took them off last night and did sort of a make shift angle measurement, they were 45 degree angle. So, that definitely makes them SAE. So, you'll see in the next reply on how and what I remedied this project. Thanks for the concern, and advice. Appreciated.
Scott

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike and Pat View Post
Scott, I had the same problem with my 04 meridian as far as the fuel draining back to the fuel tank and luckily I had a friend helping me and we used the air hose in the fuel tank and that helped me get it started. I did not have the problem with the fuel disappearing on the rail side thank goodness. But I am looking at changing my filter head to the one that will accept the primer pump so that I will not have the problem in the future. I am looking at this mod very interestingly so please keep us up on how it works out for you.

Thanks for all that you do in keeping us all informed.
Mike and Pat,
Well, to many on here, I'm wasting my time, and money. Well, it may or may not have happened and, will ever happen to them but, it happened to me, and I never want it to happen again. So, this remedy, while it bit me a little in the pocket book, to the tune of $75.00 for all the components which, I most likely could have cut that almost in half by purchasing the same components at Home Depot or Lowes, is going to GAUARNTY, it will NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN, no matter what the fuel level status is, or the angle of the motor home, or anything.

I installed two, 1/4 turn, low profile, ball valves in line with the original hoses. I had drawings of what I wanted and alternatives but, the fella behind the counter came out with the fittings you see in the picture and, while it was not what I was thinking, it did the same thing and in the end, my purpose is accomplished and the issue is rememdied. I'm still contemplating the addition of the secondary filter and, the hand primer that comes with it but, for now, this is it. On line, I looked at, at least a dozen valves, priced from as low as about $7.00 to as high as around $53.00 each.

These "Were" $22.00 each but, I whined a bit and he came down to about $15.00. They've got teflon seals in them so they should be good for the life of the coach. Based on the proximity of all the componenents, filter, brace in back, filter base, etc. I had to remove the handles on the valves to rotate them for installation. When done, I re-installed the handles. I'm real happy with the setup.
Scott


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Old 03-27-2013, 01:08 PM   #12
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After u installed the shut off valves how did the motor react on the first start up with some air in the line.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post



Mike and Pat,
Well, to many on here, I'm wasting my time, and money.
Seems like time and money well spent to me ... I'll be doin' it along with my next new filter. Thanks for the followup!
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:26 PM   #14
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Looks like you've also got a little "anti-theft" device.
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