Very technical question about Allison 1000 transmission.

[LoneTux]

Hello everybody,

I own a 2002 Winnebago Chieftain motorhome built around Workorse Custom Chassis.
The chassis uses Allison 1000 transmission.

My question is about the transmission: Do any of you have the information whether the wet clutches that the transmission uses have metal-to-metal friction surfaces or maybe metal-to-other-material surfaces ?
Maybe some of you had disassembled such transmission or has seen somebody disassembling it ?

A Google Images search (like this: http://i.imgur.com/agyT30s.jpg) shows that the friction surfaces are not full-metal, but I need to be 100% sure.

The reason I need this info is I will be using a kind of "chemical ceramic metal structure enhancer" in my transmission, which could damage the clutches (well, not really "damage" but make them too slippery, so they would probably stop working properly) if they are full-metal.

I will not state the name of the chemical as this is not an advertisement.

Thanks upfront,
Kamil

[BFlinn181]

Unless you're having issues with the transmission, I can't see any upside to adding this 'enhancement.' Allison builds a pretty good product, good for many more miles anyone puts on an RV. Perhaps if you drove a dump truck or garbage truck that makes thousands of stops per week you'd need such an additive, but in an RV it's a waste of money. Better to save up for a new RV.

[Jake74]

Your friction clutches are fiber with a metal plate stacked between.

[LoneTux]

Originally Posted by Jake74

Your friction clutches are fiber with a metal plate stacked between.

Thanx a lot.

[edgray]

Originally Posted by LoneTux

Hello everybody,

I own a 2002 Winnebago Chieftain motorhome built around Workorse Custom Chassis.
The chassis uses Allison 1000 transmission.

My question is about the transmission: Do any of you have the information whether the wet clutches that the transmission uses have metal-to-metal friction surfaces or maybe metal-to-other-material surfaces ?
Maybe some of you had disassembled such transmission or has seen somebody disassembling it ?

A Google Images search (like this: http://i.imgur.com/agyT30s.jpg) shows that the friction surfaces are not full-metal, but I need to be 100% sure.

The reason I need this info is I will be using a kind of "chemical ceramic metal structure enhancer" in my transmission, which could damage the clutches (well, not really "damage" but make them too slippery, so they would probably stop working properly) if they are full-metal.

I will not state the name of the chemical as this is not an advertisement.

Thanks upfront,
Kamil

I won't pretend to know if your 1000MH tranny has metallic clutch plates, but I can tell you that I won't put anything into mine except TranSynd or other approved brand of TES295 in it. YOURS came with Dexron III, but "should" have been changed to one of the above fluids long ago.


FWIW, I think the clutches are "fiberous", and not totally metallic.

[hzjcm8]

Do not put any aftermarket additives into your transmission as you are likely to change the friction characteristics of your clutches. the friction plates have cellulose based material separated by steel plates.


Sent from my iPhone using iRV2 - RV Forum

[BFlinn181]

LoneTux, I suggest you heed Tom's (hzjcm8) advice. Check out his credentials.

[LoneTux]

Originally Posted by hzjcm8

Do not put any aftermarket additives into your transmission as you are likely to change the friction characteristics of your clutches. the friction plates have cellulose based material separated by steel plates.

Thanks for help, you are right.

But yeah, I kind of figured that out myself. I changed my mind and I am either going to not use the chemical, or use a 25% of normal dosage.

I am afraid that changing the friction characteristics of the clutches would make mountain braking (engine braking) less effective, which could be dangerous as I do not have a specialized retarder (mountain brake).

[Arch Hoagland]

When you posted this question last week another place I replied that I could put you in touch with an expert.

hzjcm8 is that expert. I would heed his advice.

[hzjcm8]

Originally Posted by LoneTux

Thanks for help, you are right.

But yeah, I kind of figured that out myself. I changed my mind and I am either going to not use the chemical, or use a 25% of normal dosage.

I am afraid that changing the friction characteristics of the clutches would make mountain braking (engine braking) less effective, which could be dangerous as I do not have a specialized retarder (mountain brake).

LoneTux,

I'm thinking someone suggested this aftermarket additive. Can you tell us who recommended it and why they recommended it? What is the product supposed to do? These questions might help me to give you a more detailed answer.

Let me explain a little bit though. Every transmission fluid, if it's approved by Allison, will carry an approval number. Here I'm referring to one of two specifications (TES-389 or TES-295). Those specifications required that the the fluids be tested to some pretty rigorous testing which includes viscosity measures, oxidation resistance testing, seals compatibility testing, frictional characteristics testing, anti-wear testing and more. These tests can cost the oil and/or additive company anywhere from $100,000 to over $500,000 or more to complete. And, these tested fluids all represent samples of the "finished formulations" meaning they represent all the final chemistry and how the fluid is to be manufactured (without aftermarket additives). Approval requires that these oil and additive companies not make any changes to the approved formulation.

So, you can see that Allison approved transmission fluids go through rigorous testing and contain every bit of additives and base oils needed to pass these tests and the additive and oil companies employ hundreds of PhD organic chemists to successfully formulate these Allison approved products.

So, whoever is telling you that this aftermarket additive should help improve anything in the transmission is either lying to you or they have profound knowledge (backed by hundreds of hours of testing) that they'd be happy to share with all of us.

I'm not trying to be a smarty pants here. I'm just telling you to watch out for aftermarket products that claim to improve system performance or durability. In probably every case, the data will be found to be insufficient or non-existent.

Here's a link to a paper on lubricants and what happens to them over time: http://www.jglubricantservices.com/d...ical_sheet.pdf. I thought it may be of interest to you and others. I'm sure some members have read this before.

Please Note:: The paper at this link is not meant as advertisement.

[LoneTux]

Originally Posted by hzjcm8

LoneTux,

I'm thinking someone suggested this aftermarket additive. Can you tell us who recommended it and why they recommended it? What is the product supposed to do? These questions might help me to give you a more detailed answer.

Let me explain a little bit though. Every transmission fluid, if it's approved by Allison, will carry an approval number. Here I'm referring to one of two specifications (TES-389 or TES-295). Those specifications required that the the fluids be tested to some pretty rigorous testing which includes viscosity measures, oxidation resistance testing, seals compatibility testing, frictional characteristics testing, anti-wear testing and more. These tests can cost the oil and/or additive company anywhere from $100,000 to over $500,000 or more to complete. And, these tested fluids all represent samples of the "finished formulations" meaning they represent all the final chemistry and how the fluid is to be manufactured (without aftermarket additives). Approval requires that these oil and additive companies not make any changes to the approved formulation.

So, you can see that Allison approved transmission fluids go through rigorous testing and contain every bit of additives and base oils needed to pass these tests and the additive and oil companies employ hundreds of PhD organic chemists to successfully formulate these Allison approved products.

So, whoever is telling you that this aftermarket additive should help improve anything in the transmission is either lying to you or they have profound knowledge (backed by hundreds of hours of testing) that they'd be happy to share with all of us.

I'm not trying to be a smarty pants here. I'm just telling you to watch out for aftermarket products that claim to improve system performance or durability. In probably every case, the data will be found to be insufficient or non-existent.

Here's a link to a paper on lubricants and what happens to them over time: http://www.jglubricantservices.com/d...ical_sheet.pdf. I thought it may be of interest to you and others. I'm sure some members have read this before.

Please Note:: The paper at this link is not meant as advertisement.

First, I am impressed by your technical knowledge, you really seem to be the expert everyone here claims you are.

I would not want to state the name of chemical, because this is not an advertisement, but if you really really want, I can tell you in the next posts.

For now, I will say how the chemical works is tested by scientifically done tests. The chemical creates ceramic metal coating by travelling with oil (you need to mix it with oil first) and binding with metal on molecular level everywhere where there is friction. The newly-created ceramic surface is many levels stronger, more resistant to pressure and has less friction than metal-only surface.

So essentially it makes all metal surfaces slippy and nearly indestructible, COLOSSALLY decreasing engine (& other parts) wear. For around 50.000 miles - after that you need to use it again to recreate the ceramic surface.

Whether it works or not is not a topic I am going to discuss, because I have tested it already:
- On my car's engine
- On my car's transmission (manual)
It works beautifully exactly as the producer claims, also I can prove it scientifically by simply measuring pressures of the cylinders before the additive and after the additive (which I did because I don't believe in magic - I believe in science).

To be clear the manufacturer himself advocates against using it in automatic transmissions, but people do it anyway - it's that good.

EDIT:
Impresive small detail: In Poland they actually did few test with the chemical, adding it to oil in engine first, and then actually removing the oil pan and driving the car for 300 miles with no oil at all. The car still worked fine after that.

Oh, I found similar product for you in english (but this is not the one I am using). :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGY003ocm1o

Found some more examples using proper google search:
https://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&q=ceramic+engine+oil+coating&gws_rd=s sl

I am surely going to use it for my RV's engine, rear axle and even HWH leveling, but automatic transmission - not willing to risk it.

[BFlinn181]

Gee, if it's as good as you claim, why hasn't a major vehicle manufacturer bought out the company and added it to their cars going down the assembly line?? A couple of giant smell points, "removing the oil pan and driving the car for 300 miles with no oil at all." I've seen infomercials doing the same stunt, wonder where all those products are now? You also say, "The chemical creates ceramic metal coating by travelling with oil (you need to mix it with oil first) and binding with metal on molecular level everywhere where there is friction." Must be a 'smart' chemical to know exactly where to 'bond' everywhere there is friction. Again, I've 'seen on TV' other products making this kind of claim, where are these miracle additives now? Probably on the shelf with the 100 mpg carburetors, super spark plugs, and magnets you put on the fuel line to 'align the molecules' as it flows through the magnets.

TNSTAAFL. There's no such thing as a free lunch. The auto industry is spending billions in improving vehicles to go further, wear less, use less fuel, etc. I just don't believe in a Polish miracle. Spend your money. When you trash your transmission maybe we can all stand around and view the ceramic bonded on a molecular level, of all the friction areas of your transmission. RIP.

[LoneTux]

Originally Posted by BFlinn181

Gee, if it's as good as you claim, why hasn't a major vehicle manufacturer bought out the company and added it to their cars going down the assembly line?? A couple of giant smell points, "removing the oil pan and driving the car for 300 miles with no oil at all." I've seen infomercials doing the same stunt, wonder where all those products are now? You also say, "The chemical creates ceramic metal coating by travelling with oil (you need to mix it with oil first) and binding with metal on molecular level everywhere where there is friction." Must be a 'smart' chemical to know exactly where to 'bond' everywhere there is friction. Again, I've 'seen on TV' other products making this kind of claim, where are these miracle additives now? Probably on the shelf with the 100 mpg carburetors, super spark plugs, and magnets you put on the fuel line to 'align the molecules' as it flows through the magnets.
TNSTAAFL. There's no such thing as a free lunch. The auto industry is spending billions in improving vehicles to go further, wear less, use less fuel, etc. I just don't believe in a Polish miracle. Spend your money. When you trash your transmission maybe we can all stand around and view the ceramic bonded on a molecular level, of all the friction areas of your transmission. RIP.

Well, been there, done that.

Sorry, I am not here to convince you (or anybody) that it works. I came to ask how an automatic transmission is built internally to know whether it is safe to use it or not.

Convincing anybody on the Internet never works anyway - that's what life taught me.

I will just answer 2 questions:
- "How the chemical knows where to bind with metal" ?
Easy. Friction creates intense heat. The chemical hardens in places with highly increased temperature.

- "If it is so amazing, why don't car manufacturers use it ?"
Well, apparently they do.
Chemicals Articles on ThomasNet
http://swaintech.com/

Can you please stop fighting me now ? I am really not going to discuss whether it works or not, sorry. I already know it works and do not require anybody else's opinion.

[Arch Hoagland]

There are none so blind as those that won't see.