8.1L - Synthetic or Dino?

[oemtech]

Well guys I got my oil analysis back and my suspicion was right. My 3 previous test were with 2 different synthetic oils. The 1st & 2nd tests was with Pennzoil and the 3rd test was with Royal Purple.

The first test the copper level was 3x higher than average. The 2nd test it 7.5x higher. The 3rd test it was 11x higher. Also, my iron levels were about 2x higher than average.

As a test I decided to switch back to standard dino oil. Needless to say I dumped $35 worth of Mobil 1 and put in 8 qts of Castrol 10w-30. I took a trip to Minnesota and back for a total of 2,264 miles. When I got back I sent a sample to Blackstone Labs and the results supported my suspensions that the synthetic oil was driving my copper and iron levels high as my copper levels dropped almost 50%. Why... I suspect the oil cooler lines.

The DIY CAI is working just fine as the Silicon (dirt) in the oil was 6 and the average is 14.

Lastly there was <0.5% fuel in the oil and 0 water or antifreeze.



Now you know why you need to test your oil.

[DriVer]

Verry Interesting!

[Full-Timers]

Doesn't make sense to me.

[Chuck 1935]

oemtech
Doesn't sound good for synthetic. If I'm reading it right it sound as though that is your conclusion at this time ?
I have always used Shell Rotella in my gas engines 15/30 and 15/40 in my diesel and have never had a problem but I've never had it tested.

[oemtech]

I sent a copy of my test to Royal Purple and received the following reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal Purple It is not uncommon for many vehicles to show an increase in copper ppm in spectral oil analysis when switching from brand a to brand b oils in the same engine. This is not indicative of actual metal wear in the engine - as there is no significant amounts of actual copper or bronze in engines. Where this value is coming from is from copper salts from copper fluxes used in copper oil coolers. Some oils will tend to allow wear particles to drop out of suspension - leaving deposits in the engine. When changing to an oil with excellent solvency properties will tend to increase until the engine is clean and free of deposits left by previous oils. If you were to run a ferrography of the oil samples (actually looking at the individual wear particles) - you would see that the competitor oil is leaving iron wear particles and that the RP is not - Ferrography would also reveal that there is not copper wear occurring in your engine - but is a copper soluble salt. Run the RP through several oil changes and your iron and copper should normalize. The attached paper is from Caterpillar - unrelated to RP. Cheers, David David Canitz Manager - International Markets Tech Services Royal Purple Inc 1 Royal Purple Lane Porter, TX 77365 281-354-8600 281-354 7600 fax 713.725.7207 cell dcanitz@royalpurple.com

My suspecions were right. So, do I switch back to Royal Purple and see what happens or do I stay with dino oil?

I have a copy of the CAT paper if anyone wants a copy. Very interesting reading, especially since it was published back in 2003.

I also sent a copy of the Royal Purple reply to Blackstone Labs and received the following reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackstone Labs Dale: Thanks for the reply and the attachment. Does your 8.1L have an oil cooler? It's pretty common to see high copper in GM V-8's but it normally starts out high and then improves after that, and since that's not happening, I wouldn't think the high copper was coming from oxides off a new oil cooler. It's hard to say exactly what form the copper is in in your oil. In our opinion, less metal is better and I would like to hear Castrol's take on their oil allowing wear particles to drop out of suspension. I guess the best test would be to run another fill of Royal Purple and see what happens to wear. Let me know if you have any questions about this. Sincerely, Ryan Stark Blackstone Labs

So now my next step is to see what Castrol say's, assuming that they will reply.

[Joe Gilbert]

I also have high copper levels in my Blackstone Labs analysis (Mobil 1 10/30). The last three samples show 121, 116, and 128 PPM. If you do a search of "Mobil 1- High copper" you will find a lot of samples from various engines showing high copper. I don't think it is a problem. I expect more 8.1 engines are running with Mobil 1 in them than any other brand. Unless someone ties engine failures to Mobil 1 I'll continue to use it.

JoeG

[az bound]

Not trying to be critical of someone who wants to do oil testing but of what value is it ? They send you an analysis of metal content in the oil and what is to be done with that information?

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by az bound Not trying to be critical of someone who wants to do oil testing but of what value is it ? They send you an analysis of metal content in the oil and what is to be done with that information?

az bound, You can make an informed decision about pressing issues that may not be readily apparent in day to day operation of your vehicle.

In this case, we see where a different strategy was pursued to rule out a condition by taking proactive measures. This option was only made possible by oil analysis.

[RustyJC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DriVer In this case, we see where a different strategy was pursued to rule out a PERCEIVED condition by pursuing proactive measures.

Since no one seems to know where the copper is coming from and whether there's a true incipient problem developing or not, I'd suggest that the modified statement above might be more accurate.

Rusty

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyJC Since no one seems to know where the copper is coming from and whether there's a true incipient problem developing or not, I'd suggest that the modified statement above might be more accurate.

Rusty, I'm glad to see you back and running!

At your job the use of oil analysis is most likely a normal strategy. Whether the situation is perceived or tangible allows you to make better decisions.

[Joe Gilbert]

In my case I have used the oil analysis data in a positive way. My first two samples showed very high silicon. High enough so Blackstone suggested there was a problem. I checked the air-box, filter, and air intake connections and still had high silicon. I than made my own cold-air-intake, using a S&B filter. The silicon levels were reduced to below "normal". I think oil sampling is a great idea if done at every oil change.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Gilbert I think oil sampling is a great idea if done at every oil change.

Joe Gilbert, In your case a real world benefit was realized and a long term solution was pursued and proven out.

[az bound]

What was used to establish a baseline for the testing? If the oil was not tested prior to use there would be no way of knowing wheather there was any change in mineral content from the original.

[DriVer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by az bound What was used to establish a baseline for the testing? If the oil was not tested prior to use there would be no way of knowing whether there was any change in mineral content from the original.

In the case of the OP, Oemtech, his test #1 was established as the baseline.

In the case of the silicon content, obviously the normal limits were exceeded and something was needed to be accomplished to reduce the levels. Any oil sample will have an acceptable min and max for any component. Is the case of a contaminant like sand/dirt, a baseline would not be required. Would you not agree?