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Full-Timers · 10-06-2009, 06:35 PM

I almost wrecked the motorhome today because of this brake recall. I was heading down a steep long grade. The kind they limit trucks to 45mph. I dropped it to 3rd and hunkered down behind the trucks and with some intermittent braking was able to hold it to 45mph with no problem. The problem came when I smelled brakes burning. I tried to ignore it as I always did in the past thinking it must be the truck in front of me until my wife said something. Now I started thinking about the brake recall. Wondering if my brakes stuck during one of my braking periods I decided to pull over before I did some damage. I found a turnout, turned on my signal, started braking, and started pulling over. I didn’t notice the 6 inch drop at the transition from pavement to dirt pullout until I was just about airborne. The wheels locked as they hit the dirt and kicked up quite a dust cloud. Fortunately it stayed nice and straight and my toad followed with no problem. I got out and felt all wheels and gave them all a sniff. The wheels were surprisingly cold and no brake smell. If it weren’t for this brake recall on my mind, I would have just kept on going and not come close to wrecking the whole rig.

DriVer · 10-06-2009, 08:48 PM

Full-Timers, You were doing just what you are supposed to do. Coming down off he grade at 45 MPH if you can hold it there with compression is a good thing. Intermittent application of he brakes to control your speed as you stated is also how you should drive the vehicle.

I see nothing wrong in your technique. I do regret to see the difficulty you put upon yourself as you were getting off the road. Take care.

We leave tomorrow am for Dillard, GA and the South Carolina highlands in the North West part of the state. I expect that I will be giving my new grade brake a workout and not my brakes.

wa8yxm · 10-07-2009, 09:48 AM

One thing I love about my Allison transmission is that Grade brake.

No need for me to manually downshift the tranny.. I just turn on the Grade Bake and when the speed starts to climb use the pedal brake to bring her back down and let the Allison do it's thing. Very long steep grades I may have to do the pedal brake again 2 or 3 more times but .. Well.. The allison does a good job of saving wear and tear on the brake pads.

You ask who makes the better engine, Ford or Chevy, and what amounts to a religious argument will ensue.

You ask who makes the best Tranny and... It's ALLISON, nearly unanamous agreement.

mythplaced · 10-07-2009, 10:23 AM

THank heavens you and yours were not injured FT....
But I'll bet that underwear has had it though!

While I have said it before, and I'm sure others are tired of hearing it...

I am very worried that these calipers are going to kill or injure someone..(and I'm sure they already have, but we just haven't heard)

This is NOT solely a Workhorse issue...It is an issue for EVERY MOTORHOME that uses these Bosch calipers (or for that matter any brake caliper with a piston made form a hygroscopic material)...

It is not the caliper manufacturers fault either, because they did not specify the use of these calipers on motorhomes that see long periods of storage...

THis responsibility rests entirely on the shoulders of the Motorhome manufacturers of which Workhorse is only one of many (I know Alpines are affected also, and I wonder how many others?) who specified the use of calipers with hygroscopic material in the pistons...

THe NHTSA is NOT going to do anything about all those "other" manufacturers unless there are a couple deaths and a congressional panel is charged with investigating this....

All the while there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of #25000+ lb motorhomes travelling our highways at 60+mph, that might not be able to stop safely...

This situation exposes a significant gap in the laws and regulations that "supposedly" ensure that the vehicles we operate and the roads we drive on are safe as possible...

edgray · 10-07-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mythplaced

THank heavens you and yours were not injured FT....
............This is NOT solely a Workhorse issue...It is an issue for EVERY MOTORHOME that uses these Bosch calipers (or for that matter any brake caliper with a piston made form a hygroscopic material)...

It is not the caliper manufacturers fault either, because they did not specify the use of these calipers on motorhomes that see long periods of storage...

THis responsibility rests entirely on the shoulders of the Motorhome manufacturers of which Workhorse is only one of many (I know Alpines are affected also, and I wonder how many others?) who specified the use of calipers with hygroscopic material in the pistons...

...

Sorry, but I'm having trouble with your statements I put in bold above.

You seem to excuse BOSCH from responsibility, but I doubt you'll find anyone at Bosch who will claim they did not know WCC builds RV chassis. Perhaps both companies are guilty of not anticipating the long periods of inactivity that some owners subject their chassis to, but it was a Bosch decision to equip the calipers with phenolic pistons. I believe this decision was an attempt to insulate the fluid behind the piston from the pad generated heat, however that has proven to be a "poor choice", as we tell our grandchildren in this PC world.

Regarding the second statement, I don't believe WCC "specified" the use of the piston material, as you claim. Rather, I believe the WCC engineers relied on, and bought, the brake product that was sold to them by an aknowledged brake system expert (Bosch). Your statement implies that Bosch allows the customer to design their products for them, which isn't likely IMO.

Most engineers are very proud of their work, and I believe that is one of the reasons it took so long for them to admit the problem is related to an engineering choice Bosch made. Yes, Bosch can point to the commercial applications of the same caliper and say "no failures here", but that does not change the fact that these pistons do not work equally well in some RV applications. However, I believe it did contribute to the early postion taken by WCC that the problem was most likely operator mis-use or lack of maintanence, which has created a lot of ill-will towards WCC. because none of us-just like the engineers- wants to be told we did something wrong.
ED

Always-RVing · 10-07-2009, 12:01 PM

snip snip: Allison transmission is that Grade brake.

Allison Grade Brake? I wonder if I have that on an Allison MH 3000?

mythplaced · 10-07-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edgray

........
You seem to excuse BOSCH from responsibility, but I doubt you'll find anyone at Bosch who will claim they did not know WCC builds RV chassis.

I "excuse" no-one, there are thousands of OEM's who make everything from screws to electronic engine management systems.....The ultimate responsibility of "suitability for use" belongs with the person who specified a certain OEM component for use in a certain application.

Quote:

Originally Posted by edgray

........
I don't believe WCC "specified" the use of the piston material, as you claim.

Nope I do not claim that.... I do claim that "Someone" at WCC (and other MH manufacturers) specified that this brake system was "suitable for use" and included it in the specifications for the completed MH product, and "certified" the design as meeting all safety standards..

Quote:

Originally Posted by edgray

........
the WCC engineers relied on, and bought, the brake product that was sold to them by an aknowledged brake system expert (Bosch).

I agree, Yes they did, and that was a "short-cut" (outsourcing of their responsibility) that has had dangerous consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by edgray

........
Your statement implies that Bosch allows the customer to design their products for them, which isn't likely IMO.

Actually, large firms (like Mitsubishi or Navistar) routinely give design guidance and specifications to their OEM suppliers...How else would they ensure that an OEM part will meet their functional requirements?

edgray · 10-07-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batman_777

snip snip: Allison transmission is that Grade brake.

Allison Grade Brake? I wonder if I have that on an Allison MH 3000?

No, it is not a feature on the MH3000. You probably do have either an engine or exhaust brake, but not the TGB downshift function. ED

edgray · 10-07-2009, 02:15 PM

Sorry Mike, not wanting to start a big debate here, but I was responding to your statements which are there for everyone to see. Please excuse me if I mis-read what you posted......

When I said... "you seem to excuse" that was the result of my reading your statement " it is not the caliper manufacturer's fault, either..."

When I said.. "I don't believe WCC "specified" the use of the piston material, as you claim." that was the result of my reading of your statement "Workhorse is only one of many (I know Alpines are affected also, and I wonder how many others?) who specified the use of calipers with hygroscopic material in the pistons...

rickandcheryl · 10-07-2009, 02:26 PM

You have got to think that Workhorse's reputation from this brake snafu and the terrible way they treat their customers is in the toilet or lower. It HAS to be affecting their bottom, so you think they would learn.