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12-25-2018, 11:28 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Camarillo, CA ---Back in the house after 7 yrs fulltiming
Posts: 1,651
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You might consider adding the Grade Brake from UltraRVproducts.com
It will add a lot of engine braking that you don't have on the earlier W22 models....it came standard after 2006 or thereabouts. I added it to my 2004 W22 about 5 yrs ago. It will keep the torque converter locked up as it automatically down shifts as you slow down. I ordered it from UP and installed it myself, it's pretty easy to do. Give Jon Brazel a call at 800-417-4559 & tell him Duner sent you over.
As to brake pedal pressure, that's quite subjective and it's hard to say what's normal.
Good luck,
Bill
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Bill & dear wife Helen
Last of the Chieftains, 2004 39T, W22, UP tune, Banks, Koni's, Safe-T-Plus, SMI brake
2017 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid towed 4-down or my 2008 Jeep Wrangler JK
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12-27-2018, 01:20 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
Posts: 2,693
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We recently had the Brake Guard USA 760-807-7487 RV Motorhome & Tow Vehicle Braking system installed on our 2007 W22. Haven't had to test it in panic mode, but every day driving it makes a huge difference: very firm pedal now, and very little free play.
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Alan Hepburn - San Jose, Ca
2007 Bounder 35E being pushed by a 2020 Jeep Gladiator Sport S or a 2022 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) Sport S
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12-27-2018, 01:31 PM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 11,403
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Can't say it is exactly the same but our 2005 Sightseer had the worst brakes of any vehicle I have ever driven and I have driven thousands of vehicles. I took it back to the dealer and they messed with it and got some improvement.
IF I had kept it I was going to make some changes. I looked at the way the rear brakes lines were designed and am not an engineer but it sure looked strange that they went from a large hose to one about half the size or maybe a 1/4 the size when feeding each rear side. It just did not pass the common sense test. There had to be a reduction in the pressure do to the way it was built.
Some sort of pressure gauge on the caliper would tell of course but it just did not seem right. I also suspected the anti lock braking device as not working well.
When I took it home the first night it took two feet to get it to stop. Before anyone tells me about big heavy rigs just don't. I have owned many RV's and currently own a 43 foot Diesel that stops much easier and has "normal" brake pedal pressure. An entirely different system of course.
In my business I moved thousands of vehicles in 40+ years and know what brake pedal pressure should be.
I would have ripped the brake lines out and gone to normal size ones if we had kept it. Somehow those little ones they used across the rear axle just seemed far too small.
My two cents.
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Certified Senior Electronic Technician, Telecommunications Engineer, Telecommunications repair Service Center Owner, Original owner HR 2008
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12-27-2018, 03:07 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YC1
Can't say it is exactly the same but our 2005 Sightseer had the worst brakes of any vehicle I have ever driven and I have driven thousands of vehicles. I took it back to the dealer and they messed with it and got some improvement.
IF I had kept it I was going to make some changes. I looked at the way the rear brakes lines were designed and am not an engineer but it sure looked strange that they went from a large hose to one about half the size or maybe a 1/4 the size when feeding each rear side. It just did not pass the common sense test. There had to be a reduction in the pressure do to the way it was built.
Some sort of pressure gauge on the caliper would tell of course but it just did not seem right. I also suspected the anti lock braking device as not working well.
When I took it home the first night it took two feet to get it to stop. Before anyone tells me about big heavy rigs just don't. I have owned many RV's and currently own a 43 foot Diesel that stops much easier and has "normal" brake pedal pressure. An entirely different system of course.
In my business I moved thousands of vehicles in 40+ years and know what brake pedal pressure should be.
I would have ripped the brake lines out and gone to normal size ones if we had kept it. Somehow those little ones they used across the rear axle just seemed far too small.
My two cents.
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Hydraulic pressure is not affected by pipe diameter. Google Pascal's Law.
__________________
04 Southwind 37C W22
DIY Rear Panhard Rod
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12-27-2018, 04:00 PM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,349
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Decreasing the diameter of the master cylinder, increasing the diameter of the caliper pistons or using higher friction pads will help stopping and decrease pedal pressure.
Increasing line diameter will not help with brake pressure. It will help with flow, but since the pads are already close to the rotors and the calipers full, flow has nothing to do with pedal pressure.
If I felt that it needed better stopping power, I would first research and buy the best high friction pads I could find.
Start with the rear brakes, they do the most work on the heavier loaded axles.
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12-27-2018, 06:38 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club Mid Atlantic Campers Ford Super Duty Owner
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: St. Augustine Fl
Posts: 877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan_Hepburn
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Did you install it yourself? Or have a Service facility do it? If so, what kind of expense, for the unit & the installation? Thanks for the information!
The website, & its' links all seem to go back to 2003! Is this something you recently installed?
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12-27-2018, 06:49 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,349
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12-27-2018, 11:12 PM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,460
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The first thing I would look at is the linkage. On my beaver, it was not assembled or adjusted properly, which caused the mechanical advantage to go down as the pedal was pressed. I have a paper that describes the way it's supposed to work, if your coach has the MC under the driver and it's actuated via a bellcrank. After proper adjustment my pedal pressure was reduced by about 30%.
Softer pad compounds will work. Try Porterfield racing in California. They make all kinds of unobtainium brake pads and shoes from a variety of compounds.
If you cannot gain mechanical advantage or better performance with compounds then the next best route is to go with a smaller MC. Your pedal travel will increase and the effort will go down.
I have a 01 GMC with the hydraulic booster and the performance of that has been outstanding, I'm sure there's a test that can be run but unless it's leaking or a hose is kinked I doubt there's a booster problem.
Brake Guard is junk.
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12-28-2018, 12:44 PM
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#23
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
Posts: 2,693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabber Jaw
Did you install it yourself? Or have a Service facility do it? If so, what kind of expense, for the unit & the installation? Thanks for the information!
The website, & its' links all seem to go back to 2003! Is this something you recently installed?
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We had it installed by the company owner at the Bounders United Rally back in October. If I recall we paid $549 installed. It took him about 15 minutes to do the install.
__________________
Alan Hepburn - San Jose, Ca
2007 Bounder 35E being pushed by a 2020 Jeep Gladiator Sport S or a 2022 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) Sport S
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12-28-2018, 12:51 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
Posts: 2,693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat
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The owner of the company addresses this issue in his seminars - the device is NOT an ABS system, and he does not imply that it is. What it does is compensate for fluctuations in pressure caused by the rotors not being 100% flat. He uses ABS operation as an example: when the ABS system activates the brake pedal pulses because the ABS is rapidly adjusting pressure - causing many drivers to back off the brake pedal in panic. With the Brake Guard system those pulses in the pedal disappear, so drivers are less prone to back off the pedal. In normal driving the pedal is more firm, and there is less pedal travel before the brakes start to work.
__________________
Alan Hepburn - San Jose, Ca
2007 Bounder 35E being pushed by a 2020 Jeep Gladiator Sport S or a 2022 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) Sport S
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12-28-2018, 01:48 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan_Hepburn
The owner of the company addresses this issue in his seminars - the device is NOT an ABS system, and he does not imply that it is. What it does is compensate for fluctuations in pressure caused by the rotors not being 100% flat. He uses ABS operation as an example: when the ABS system activates the brake pedal pulses because the ABS is rapidly adjusting pressure - causing many drivers to back off the brake pedal in panic. With the Brake Guard system those pulses in the pedal disappear, so drivers are less prone to back off the pedal. In normal driving the pedal is more firm, and there is less pedal travel before the brakes start to work.
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Its about $40 of parts for $500.
If it was so great, why hasn't the giant auto industry adopted it.
Non flat rotors need to be fixed.
Anti lock systems have accumulators in them. That's what stores the energy while they pulse.
I'm sorry but you shouldn't need to sit thru a seminar to be sold on a " Great " device, that no one else markets.
Beside his claims, is there any independent testing data on his device ?
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12-28-2018, 05:58 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 260
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Make sure the wheel bearing seals are good and not leaking oil on the rotors/pads...bakes will not stop very well and require more foot pedal pressure..
__________________
2007 Fleetwood Terra LX
Workhorse W22 8.1 Allison
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12-28-2018, 06:13 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: San Jose, Ca, USA
Posts: 2,693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twinboat
Its about $40 of parts for $500.
If it was so great, why hasn't the giant auto industry adopted it.
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There are countless items available in the aftermarket that have not been adopted by the industry - that doesn't mean they are worthless. All it means is that the industry hasn't adopted them, probably due to cost constraints, licensing, or any number of reasons.
Quote:
Non flat rotors need to be fixed.
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All rotors have some run-out built-in - that's what moves the discs away from the rotors when you release the brakes. Even though you can't feel it, it causes pulses in the hydraulic system that can reduce brake efficiency.
Quote:
Anti lock systems have accumulators in them. That's what stores the energy while they pulse.
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...and that pulsing is why many drivers panic when they feel, and hear it, reducing pressure on the brake pedal.
Quote:
I'm sorry but you shouldn't need to sit thru a seminar to be sold on a " Great " device, that no one else markets.
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By that reasoning we shouldn't have to sit through countless TV commercials and other marketing to be sold on a new Ford, or Chevy.
Quote:
Beside his claims, is there any independent testing data on his device ?
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I haven't looked for any; but I can tell you from personal experience with MY motorhome there was a big difference in the feel of the brakes the day before it was installed, and the day after it was installed. I have not yey, and hope I never do, tested it in a pabic stop situation but I can feel the difference in normal braking while driving on city streets and freeways.
I know you think it's all snake oil, and that's fine - you're entitled to your opinion. I know what my brakes felt like before, and after, installation and I'm happy with the purchase.
I also installed a wifi repeater in my motorhome - if they really work, why doesn't Fleetwood or any other manufacturer install them? Are they snake oil also?
In my Goldwing bike I use Seafoam in the gas regularly, especially when the crappy corn-fuel sits in it for a while - I guess since Chevron and others don't include it in their formulation I'm just wasting my money because obviously the improvement I see is all in my head...
__________________
Alan Hepburn - San Jose, Ca
2007 Bounder 35E being pushed by a 2020 Jeep Gladiator Sport S or a 2022 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) Sport S
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12-28-2018, 06:41 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 35,349
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All rotors have some run-out built-in - that's what moves the discs away from the rotors when you release the brakes. Even though you can't feel it, it causes pulses in the hydraulic system that can reduce brake efficiency.
Actually,
When the brake pedal is released, hydraulic*pressure*drops and the calipers loosen their grip. Square cut seals around the caliper pistons deform when the pistons move, so when*pressure*is released the seals want to return back to their original shape.
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