Brake Pads

[onlakegaston]

Hi everyone, I need your assistance on a question about the brake pads on my W22 chassis.
First some background info:

Replacement of Bosch calipers was completed on 8/2/13 - I was informed that the pads looked brand new by the service center.

Coach has 17,900 total miles

I noticed late last year that a leak had developed on the inner hub seal on the drivers front - part was ordered from Brazel's (along with some other things).

I had the seal installed locally and mechanic said pads looked good - very little wear.

On a trip this past weekend I noticed a grinding sound from brakes about 75 miles into trip. Brakes worked fine - just grinding noise.

While at camp site my brother and I took a close look at it and it appears that the pad was separated from the actual mount.

What in the world would cause something like this to happen?

I have replaced many rotors, pads and calipers in my 61+ years and have never heard of anything like this.

What do you think?

[qchair62]

Heat, poor workmanship, age. Many things can cause a pad to separate. Quality in auto part has gone downhill IMO over the years. If the wear on the pads was past half way, and the brakes were used hard the can separate from the metal backing. I saw it on a VW Passat not two weeks ago. Every once in a while you get a bad set. Add rust and hard braking and they fail sometimes. Brake parts is one area I do not buy off brand or non OEM spec parts. Filtration is another. Hope you got them changed before they ate your rotors up.

[onlakegaston]

Too late - rotor is roached. Never braked hard - I try to anticipate the other drivers moves etc. I am wondering if some of the front hub oil got on the inner pad?

[TeJay]

qchair62, is spot on with his information. I've been out of the repair business since I retired from teaching but did experience a lot of brake issues over the years. The level of technology in brakes has really changed a bunch over the last 10-20 years.

Years ago pads were either riveted on to the metal backing plate or glued/bonded to it. I never liked the glued on. These days most passenger cars and probably trucks are glued/bonded. I really don't know if it matters anymore because of technology changes.

As he pointed to always use OEM parts. Brake stuff is no place to cut costs. In recent years I have been going to the Ford dealer for RV parts. I can actually get a Ford OEM replacement oil filter for $5. I used NAPA for years and they can't beat that price. NAPA was always my go to place for brake pads as well. I would still check them for my RV brake pads because I know in the past they were always on top of the brake replacement pads. NAPA always offered cheaper replacement pads because they don't want you to walk out of the store because of sticker shock on newer OEM metallic and ceramic pads.

To bad about the rotors. Always keep in mind when diagnosing brake issues. They are designed to create heat. That's what they do. Things like thinner rotors or poor quality pads can cause rotors to heat more than they were designed to handle so therefore they get hot beyond what they were designed to and things fail. The rotor absorbs the heat generated while braking. Then when you drive the air cools it back down. A thinner rotor allows the heat to build causing issues like glazing, warping etc.

TeJay

[onlakegaston]

Thanks qchair and TeJay for your replies. All of the brake parts are(were) OEM. After looking again with the help of one of my brothers(who is also a member of this forum) we have come to the conclusion that the inside pad was mounted backwards - with the pad facing away from the rotor. See the picks below. I know that on autos you can't put the pads on backwards.

This picture shows the passenger side brakes with wear indicators clearly visible.

This picture shows the drivers (bad) side showing only the wear indicators on the outside pad.

This one shows the inner pad with the pad mounted backwards.

This one shows the wear indicators on the inside pad with the backing facing the rotor. Please enlarge this pix for a better view.

What do you good folks think?

[qchair62]

I think if somebody mounted a pad backwards A) they shouldn't be doing brake assemblies or brake work, and B) somebody owes you a complete rework of your front rotors, calipers and pads installed and checked by a brake professional.

[twinboat]

Looks like you need to talk to the local guy who did the seal replacement.

[onlakegaston]

Yeah I will be visiting him this morning. If the pad was put on backwards they will be replacing with OEM parts and it will be checked before leaving the business. Thanks again for your help and I will post results after completion.

[TeJay]

WOOOOOW!! That's almost a first. How could somebody put the pads on backwards???? That's truly amazing. That mechanic probably rotates his underwear by turning them inside out for an additional day of wearing.

I'll relate two stories to you that I experienced teaching HS kids for 35 years.
Time ran out so we stopped with a rear shoe repair and finished it the next day. All that remained was to install the drums, tires and test drive. I assigned a kid and he came back after the test drive and said that the brakes were not good. I instructed him to put it on the lift and inspect the brakes. He pulled the tires off and exposed the wheels and he had forgotten to install the drums.

Another kid put the brake anti-squeal stuff on the pad instead of on the metal side of the pad. They didn't work very well either.

Kids can do some funny things.

I'd be back at that dealer with both barrels loaded. If that guy is still working there tomorrow I'd never set foot in that place again. Well except for getting it done correctly I don't think I'd go back there ever.

I'd really like to hear the excuses for this one.

I know of a new tech who adjusted front wheel bearings (RWD) vehicle by getting the axle nut as tight as the impact would get it. He was not one of my previous students, thank goodness.

TeJay

[onlakegaston]

Well I dropped the MH off this morning and found out the guy who worked on it is no longer there. He died of a heart attack 4 days after working on it. When I hear from them I will post results. I did leave workhorse part numbers and told him I want proof that this OEM equipment was used.I also asked him to replace the passenger side pads since they come in sets of 4 - he said let me look at them and he would get back to me later today or early tomorrow morning. The owner builds and races limited sportsman cars - I asked for him to do the work and no body else. I do not want another incompetent person working on my MH.

[TeJay]

Jim,
First of all I admire your patience and understanding. I would have been a little more demanding. The mistake that was made is about as bad as putting your socks over your shoes instead of over your feet. Or putting transmission fluid in an engine instead of oil. Actually that's a little more likely. Or installing a headlight upside down.

That is unfortunate about the mechanic that worked on your unit. If his health was that poor he might have been more experienced (older) therefore he should have had a lot of experience especially with repairs as simple as brakes. I'd have to believe his health was why he was not thinking correctly. That would also constitute a reason for extenuating circumstances regarding his poor performance. His error, however was so, so way over the top I believe without hesitation they should be helping you in any and every possible way.

I'm a little confused about the owners reaction to your request. You have proof for a law suit and without you even saying a word the owner knows that as well. He should be bending over backwards to please you. I also can't buy that, "He'd get back to you" regarding the re-use of the original pads. Also your MH should have been done by the end of the day you took it back to them. Changing pads with the correct tools and new rotors is about a 90 minute job at best. I also would have insisted that I set and watch the entire process.

I've been in the teaching and working business for 45+ years and this is the absolute worst obvious mistake I've ever heard especially from perhaps an experienced mechanic.

Best of luck and do let us know the outcome.
TeJay

[twinboat]

This sort of stuff goes on, all over, all the time.

Jiffy lube buys engines all the time.

I worked with guys who sent out brake jobs, that didn't have a pedal.

Standard transmissions, with no oil in them.

Clutch jobs, where they destroyed the disks, pushing in the tranny, with a porta power. They still managed to park them on the line.

Some of these are extreme cases, but it happens.

A minute distraction and the pad gets slipped in the wrong way.

There are good, bad and mistakes, in every profession.

[TeJay]

I'm sure glad my doctors don't operate (pun intended) with that kind of failure rate. Yes I know they can bury their mistakes. In all honesty we (that's my students and I) worked on a lot of vehicles. I'd be hard pressed to name 2-4 mistakes. No we did not operate with the same speed that shops do but I was working with young kids in training.

I'll lay the blame on to many individuals accepting average work as the issue. The grading system in schools of A,B,C,D, & F leads to average work. Kids won't do what is necessary to get an A. All they want to know is, "What can I do to get CREDIT." That attitude breads average and below performance. It's good enough. Well that's not how I taught my classes.

This kind of way below average work should not go on all over. Our accept anything society is breeding below average kids. They've been given to much with no responsibilities or consequences attached. Here's a simple story that I told all my students to illustrate my point.

You hire me to rotate your 4 tires. Will you be satisfied if I get 60% of the lug nuts back on and torqued properly??? Is 85% OK or do you want 100% of them on and torqued??? Silly question isn't it???? Yes that's what we do when we allow kids to get CREDIT by getting 60%, 70% or 80% correct.

We had an exchange student from Italy back in 1988. When he returned home he had oral exams to pass to get out of HS. Yep ORAL EXAMS before a committee of teachers. Try that in our public schools and the parents would be in an uproar.

We are reaping what we are allowing the schools to produce.

TeJay

[twinboat]

But as you can see , in this forum alone, there is lots of low quality work being done, out there.

Just look at the quality control, of M/Hs , coming out of the factorys.

When I was managing my facility, I had to know my crews capabilities, and try to assign the tasks accordingly. I couldn't be there, watching over them, all of the time.

While most student are there to learn, many employees are there to do the job as fast as they can, to keep the number crunchers happy.

Many shops pay the workers a percentage of the job, so un-necessary work is done, for profit. I read examples of that, here.

There is also an incentive to finish faster, so they can get another job.

Many people praise the small shops. That is because their bottom line stops there. You may not get the best customer service, but the quality of the work makes up for that.

Just like in medical treatment, you need to be your own advocate.

You tell a big shop your brakes are bad, your getting new brakes.

Tell a small shop your brakes are bad, the owner may call you stupid and then, show you why you don't.

IMHO, That is just the way it is out there.